South Bank Concert Halls: Management Salaries (Hansard, 12 December 1985)

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, I understand that the administrative and artistic directors will be paid £35,000 and £32,500 respectively. Of the nine people who will report directly to them, four will be on salary scales with a maximum below £20,000, three at a maximum of about £24,000 and two at a maximum just below £27,000. The posts will have rather wider responsibilities than those of the present GLC concert hall staff. The salary levels are similar to those paid by the GLC for comparable responsibilities.

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer. Would he agree with me that that is an absolutely scandalous waste of money because the position of director of these halls is nothing but a sinecure? All the work concerning the booking of the halls, etc., is surely done by one of the secretaries and one man could easily manage all three halls.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord has a great deal more experience in these things than I have; but I venture to part company with him on his expression of view. We are dealing with an enormous complex. We are also dealing with tasks which the South Bank Board is creating for work which, to some extent, has been exercised by the GLC central services on behalf of the South Bank. That is why the original Answer referred to rather wider responsibilities. I would make the point again to the noble Lord that the rates of pay are comparable to those which have been paid for similar work. I commend the South Bank Board for its overall approach to staffing policy as being conducive to economy and efficiency.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that sufficient Government—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Somers
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister give me some encouragement that when 342 these appointments are made he will see to it that I shall be appointed to one of them? I should rather like to earn £24,000 a year for doing nothing.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, under the rules the posts have to be considered within the rules of the London and Metropolitan Government Staff Commission, which means that applicants from inside, in other words those who have been working for the GLC or the Arts Council, have to be considered first.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, I am sorry if I interrupted the application for one of the jobs by the noble Lord, Lord Somers. Can the Minister assure the House that sufficient Government money will be made available for the new South Bank entrepreneurial programming? That will evidently have to include the salaries of the general directors for arts and administration and the nine senior directors referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Somers, which is in excess of what was spent by the GLC. Noble Lords opposite thought that was highly extravagant. Can this be done without transferring resources away from the regions and other London arts bodies?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, basic salaries will be shown as being slightly higher, but almost certainly that is because the work will not be done on an overtime basis. Take-home pay will not be higher. The answer to the question which was asked by the noble Baroness regarding whether the South Bank Board will have enough money, is that that is a matter for the Arts Council.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, did I understand the noble Lord to reply that the Government are now spending rather more money on these salaries than was the GLC? Does this not mean that the GLC was not quite so extravagant as the Government at times have made it out to be?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, is, no. The answer to his second question is also, no.

§ Lord Hutchinson of Lullington
My Lords, the Minister referred to similar work and similar rates of pay. Would he not agree that these 11 directors will run departments, with back-up secretarial workers no doubt, covering activities which hitherto have been covered with complete efficiency by one general manager? Would the Minister agree that if one adds up all the salaries together they would reach a sum which would just about guarantee the future of the Cottesloe Theatre on the South Bank?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord is not comparing like with like. The GLC was responsible for running the three concert halls and only the three concert halls. The South Bank Board will be the landlord of the whole estate and will, it is very much hoped, be responsible for presenting an integrated programme of all the arts.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister tell us how this fits in with Government policy in relation to pay restraint generally? Will the directors concerned also be receiving redundancy pay?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, how it fits in with Government policy. We have made it perfectly clear for the past six years that we support the arts. That is what we are doing and that is what we shall continue to do.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord to confirm that there will be no decline in artistic standards at the concert halls under the new regime?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that is not a matter for the Government.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, the Minister said just now that this is a matter for the Arts Council. Is he giving us an assurance that the Government will give the Arts Council sufficient money to enable them to do what is necessary?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, we have just given an extremely good up-rating to the Arts Council and I should have thought that the noble Lord would have been satisfied with that.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, surely the noble Lord must share the view of his former colleague that £30,000 is not enough to live on?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, may I make it crystal clear because it is important that I should do so, even though the noble Lord has asked a skilful and amusing question? I believe on behalf of the Government that the South Bank Board is pursuing its staffing policies in a way which is conducive to economy and efficiency.

§ Baroness Birk
My Lords, I wonder whether I may press the noble Lord the Minister a little further on his reply to me that it was a matter for the Arts Council to decide how the money was allocated? The Arts Council was given in its total budget the amount of £25 million to compensate for the shortfall which would be suffered over the abolition of the GLC and the metropolitan counties. Is the noble Lord the Minister aware that the Arts Council had asked for £35 million? Is it not quite a coincidence that the difference between the £25 million and the £35 million is almost equivalent to the sum for which the South Bank Board is asking to run the South Bank? That figure is about £11½ million. Therefore will the Minister not have to agree that if the Arts Council gives the South Bank Board what it wants, then other bodies all over the country must suffer?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Baroness. I think that the £25 million was a splendid up-rating from the £16 million which had been negotiated previously by my noble friend Lord Gowrie. Therefore it is an extra step in the right direction. I can only add that it will now be for the Arts Council to determine how much of that £25 million is allocated to the South Bank Board.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Government will show the same enthusiasm for creating jobs throughout the country as they have in this case?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the job creation scheme is something of which we are proud.