Commemoration of VJ-Day (Hansard, 3 December 1985)

§ The Earl of Cork and Orrery
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State for Defence Support (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, my noble friend the Lord President of the Council informed the House on 14th February that the 40th anniversary would be commemorated by two main events: a service in Westminster Abbey to mark the end of the war in all theatres of operation; and a pilgrimage to the Far East, which took place last month. On both occasions the war in the Far East and the sacrifices made were remembered, as they were on VJ-Day itself, when my noble friend the Lord President made a statement on behalf of the Government in recognition of the contribution made by those who fought in that campaign.

§ The Earl of Cork and Orrery
My Lords, I am obliged to my noble friend, and I accept the logic of regarding the two wars together as a single war, which indeed it was. But if that was the attitude of Her Majesty's Government, may I ask him to explain why it is that the commemoration of the ending of that war took place on 8th May rather than on 14th August, when it actually came to an end?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, a number of considerations caused us to decide on the day in question, not least the convenience of a number of people who had made it clear that they wished to attend.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there would have been no 40th anniversary if we had not used the bomb?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have a feeling that that question may be leading me rather far from the one on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, if I may use the peg that the noble Earl has given me, does the Minister agree that it is important to be reminded of the horrors of nuclear weaponry; and, although we should not encourage the perpetuation of international resentment and bitterness, should we not do our best to remember that war and, in particular, the manner in which it was ended? Can the Minister tell the House what consultations the Government had with those who would have wanted to be consulted and who may well have had something important to say before they decided not to commemorate specifically the war in the Far East? I am thinking particularly of representatives of the families which were devastated during that war.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, widespread consultations took place, some of which I conducted myself, particularly with those involved in the Far Eastern campaigns.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is it not a fact that the 14th Army, which took the brunt of the last war with the Japanese, were known as the Forgotten Army? As one of those who served in it, I know a bit about that. Is it not a fact that the noble Earl, who has put down the Question, is on to a valid point? There seems to be a tendency in high circles not to take much notice of what happened in the Far East. The all-important war is regarded as being the European one.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, it is the case that some of those who served in the Far East came to regard themselves as the Forgotten Army——

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, they were.

§ Lord Trefgarne
——but I was present at Brize Norton when the pilgrims left on their journey. I was happy to hear many of them say that they were forgotten no longer.

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, while this is a question perhaps of least said, soonest mended, is my noble friend aware that my noble friend Lord Cork and Orrery is indeed reflecting the views of a very large number of people who were involved in one way or another in the war in the Far East and whose feelings were very much hurt by what seemed at the time to be a very insensitive decision by the Government? Is my noble friend nonetheless aware that the presence at the very moving ceremonies at the cemeteries in Singapore and Rangoon of his Royal Highness the Duke of Kent and of the Secretary of State for Defence himself have done something to assuage those feelings?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am happy to hear the views of my noble friend on this matter. My noble friend Lord Gridley was also present, I know, in the Far East on this pilgrimage.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge the obligation that exists to the veterans and to 1188 those who gave their lives in the First World War and at various theatres in the Second World War including the Far East? Will the noble Lord consider getting in touch with the Royal British Legion—I have the privilege of being the president of the metropolitan area—who would very much welcome discussions with him to see if we cannot fix for the future some unified date on which everyone is remembered and everyone is honoured.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we are, of course, in constant touch with the British Legion on this as on other matters. The noble Lord will know that the end of the Second World War and indeed the sacrifices made by many in a number of conflicts in this century and earlier are celebrated on a day normally in November. In addition, as the noble Lord will be aware, we have recently made available on a regular basis sums of money to the British Legion to enable it to arrange visits to various cemeteries around the world.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, will the Minister accept that in spite of the very persuasive and logical arguments that he has put, there are thousands and thousands of surviving ex-servicemen from the Far East campaign who were deeply hurt by the decision to celebrate, or to commemorate, the end of the war in the way that it was done? For many of them, the war did not end until Japan surrendered. May I put what is perhaps a constructive question? Will the Government consider making some belated amends for what seems to many people to be a slight, perhaps at the next meeting of the Burma Star Association?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not think that the question of belated amends arises. We have made clear that the various ceremonies and functions that we have arranged during the course of this year were designed to record the end of the Second World War in all its theatres. I do not accept that thousands feel as the noble Lord suggests. I have myself been involved in consultations with large numbers of them. That view is not at all prevalent.

§ Viscount Slim
My Lords, may I say to your Lordships' House that in my capacity as president of the Burma Star——

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Viscount Slim
My Lords, I have to make this known to your Lordships, as I think you will agree. Is it not a fact that the noble Earl should have raised this Question? May I say, as president, that there is deep feeling? We have done much to put it right. I have myself written to the Minister in another place to thank him. But we are not there yet.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, naturally, I accept what the noble Viscount says. Nonetheless, I believe that the Government's position on this matter is one that I can repeat to your Lordships with assurance.

§ Baroness Macleod of Borve
My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether there is a memorial to those who died at sea? If not, is it envisaged by the Government that there should be?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not quite sure what kind of memorial my noble friend has in mind. But, of course, the functions to which I have referred apply to the people lost at sea as much as to those lost in any other theatre.