§ 3.8 p.m.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider that the balloting procedures under the Trade Union Act 1984 which will determine whether trade union funds may continue to be used for certain political purposes will operate so that they accurately reflect the views of union members.
§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)My Lords, voting at inconvenient, ill-attended branch meetings has been one of the most significant reasons why trade union ballots have often not properly reflected the members' wishes. The 1984 Act, by insisting that voting on political funds must be by post or at the workplace, has ensured that as many union members as possible will have the opportunity to vote. In addition, the Act's provisions on secrecy and voting methods will oblige unions to conduct ballots which accurately reflect the views of those voting.
§ Lord RochesterMy Lords, have not recent events demonstrated that in ballots concerning political funds and the election of all members of the principal executive committees of trade unions, responsibility for the distribution, the counting and the return of voting papers should be in the hands of some suitable independent body? Does not that, in turn, mean that postal ballots should be the norm? Further—
§ Lord DenhamNo. One question.
§ Lord RochesterFurther, my Lords, do the Government consider that the present arrangements for corporate political funding, as much of the Conservative Party by business interests as of the Labour Party by trade unions, are equitable in the effect that they have on other political parties?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, so far as the noble Lord's first question is concerned, as he very well knows, there are strong arguments in favour of postal voting in union ballots, but there are also dangers of disfranchising large numbers of trade union members unintentionally. That is why, in respect of the subject of the noble Lord's Question—namely, the political fund review ballots—in 1984 we went for the two options of having to vote either at the workplace or by post, but not saying which it had to be. On the noble Lord's second supplementary question, corporate funding at the end of the day depends upon the wishes of the shareholders, and I think that that is fair and reasonable.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, does the Minister know that many limited companies in this country make huge contributions to the Conservative Party without a ballot and that the only time the shareholders learn about this is when they read the annual report at the end of the year?
§ Lord BelsteadThat is at the annual general meeting, my Lords.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the success of secret balloting depends mainly upon the compilation of full and proper registers by the trades unions, and that it is in the interests of trades unions to have such registers so that they can raise money from their members? Can he say to what extent the compilation of registers is proceeding as it should?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the compilation of registers is proceeding and we have no cause for anxiety on this particular count.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, if, as the noble Lord has just said, it is quite sufficient for employers' organisations and private firms simply to state that they have contributed to a particular political party, why should it be different for trade unions? Why cannot they do precisely the same? Secondly, to follow the logic of the original Question, ought it not be proper for all the other political parties that receive money from outside sources to do what the Labour Party does and publish where every ha'penny comes from in their annual report?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the underlying principle of the 1984 legislation was that there should be a convenient opportunity for trade union members to cast a vote in ballots. This is what the 1984 legislation achieved. In exactly the same way, if the noble Lord is a shareholder in a company he can have a convenient opportunity to cast his vote.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, since the original Question was asked by a noble Lord representing the Liberal Party, may we have a little information regarding from where the Liberal Party get their funds?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, if I may reply to the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, I am as much in the dark as is the noble Lord.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, would the noble Lord accept that the Liberal Party publishes its accounts in a much clearer way—
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, I cannot be out of order. Will the noble Lord accept that the Liberal Party publishes its accounts in a way in which it is entirely transparent as to what is going on—
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, although they do not list individual donors any more than does any other party, 1218 the Liberal Party's accounts are as transparent as the accounts of any other political party in this country.
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, that is a perfectly fair intervention. Indeed, I accept it and I am grateful to the noble Lord for casting light on a confused matter.
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, would the noble Lord tell me this? Are the Government really as clever as I think they are?
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, have they deliberately left the law in this state so that those members of trade unions who do not mind discrediting their unions are enabled to do so?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, if I may say so, I think that the underlying principle of the 1984 legislation, which is that there should be a proper opportunity for trade union members to vote and that it should be done in secret, has been achieved. Now let us see how we go with the legislation.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, will the noble Lord say why he keeps on suggesting to the House that there is a method by which shareholders of an ordinary company can prevent a company making an individual, political subscription other than by denying the company the right to have its accounts passed and placing the whole of the affairs of the company in chaos?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, ever since this Question started I have been in breach, I think, of what I was told to do a week or so ago by the Procedure Committee. I have been answering a string of questions which have nothing to do with the original Question. I think that now the time has come to stop.
§ Lord PlantMy Lords, would the Minister agree that trade unions will conduct these ballots in relation to affiliations or whatever it may be in a fair and honest way and that their own members are the best monitors of the system?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I will agree with the noble Lord that the rules are now going to be very strict. This, I think, is fair and reasonable and I am sure that it will work.