HL Deb 24 April 1985 vol 462 cc1116-8

2.40 p.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what arrangements they are making for persons living in areas such as Greenham Common, Molesworth and Alconbury in time of emergency and how many households would be included in the US. defence zones and whether these would extend, as has been reported, three miles beyond existing perimeter fences.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Glenarthur)

My Lords, civil defence in these areas is a matter for the appropriate local authority within the framework of Home Office guidance. There are no United States defence zones as such, but all vital installations have individual ground defence areas planned for their protection against enemy sabotage in wartime.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the Americans have said that they have the intention of commandeering areas three miles beyond their existing perimeters in the event of an emergency occurring? In these circumstances, are not those living in the area entitled to know precisely what the intentions are so that they can make their own plans accordingly?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is thinking of ground defence areas. Each base or vital installation to be defended has an individual ground defence area plan, according to the tactical needs of the base and its site.

Lord Renton

My Lords, perhaps I may disclose that I live within a mile of the perimeter of Alconbury and within 10 miles of the perimeter of Molesworth, both of which are in my former constituency, and that we have a relaxed and co-operative attitude to the steps envisaged by the authorities with regard to these aerodromes.

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I am greatly encouraged by my noble friend's comments.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, despite the supplementary question which has just been asked, is the noble Lord aware that I have in my hand a copy of a letter to me from a lady living within three miles of Alconbury who has written to the Ministry of Defence asking what will happen to her home and her family in the event of emergency, and has received no reply? Can the noble Lord not tell us clearly whether it is intended that in the event of an emergency, in the event of war, the United States Air Force will be entitled to extend their installations three miles around the present perimeter?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, as I said in my earlier answer to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, it depends upon the tactical needs of the base and its site. If the noble Lord cares to give me a copy of the letter, I shall study it.

The Earl of Kimberley

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that it would be much better if matters like this were kept classified so that, in the event of hostilities, we would know what we were doing and the Soviet Union would not?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is quite right.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the people living close to these bases are already suffering a very considerable emergency by the thousands of unwanted visitors who do not always treat them as well as they might be treated? Can something be done to protect them, and would not a perimeter diameter of three miles be a very splendid limit, if that were so?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, that may well be so; but the noble Lord's Question relates to "in time of emergency".

Lord Kennet

My Lords, in spite of the counter-argument suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, which the House understands, would the noble Lord not think it a good plan to give the House some idea of what a ground defence area is, and what it would actually mean being in a ground defence area in the event of war or of a crisis looking like war?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, in wartime it is clearly neither sensible nor practicable to defend military bases solely within the perimeter of the base. The ground defence area is simply the area associated with the tactical defence concept for defending a vital installation.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, if your Lordships will bear with me, there is one point that I should like to make which arises directly from one of the noble Lord's answers. It is this. It has been said that this whole subject ought to be classified. Unfortunately, it is not classified in the United States of America, with the consequence that the occupying or visiting forces know a great deal more about the situation than the people living in the area, some of whom are not as relaxed in the matter as the noble Lord, Lord Renton—

Noble Lords

Question!

Lord Jenkins of Putney

In these circumstances, would the noble Lord have his office negotiate with the visiting forces' people here, so that one can have a unity of information or disinformation, and everyone will know what is going on and we shall not have a situation in which the visiting forces know a great deal more about the future intentions than the people living in the area?

Lord Glenarthur

My Lords, I have always thought—including during my period in the military—that security in these areas was important. I certainly do not detract from that now.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, I would ask my noble friend whether the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, for the second time is not contrary to the spirit of what we had agreed in these matters?

The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)

My Lords, I must make these judgments. I decided at the time that I would be generous to the noble Lord—I cannot quite think why, but I was.