Northern Ireland Social Security Benefits: Deductions (Hansard, 17 April 1985)

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)
My Lords, I regret that the information is not held in the precise form requested by the noble Baroness. However, at 31st March 1985 a total of some 10,800 deductions were being made.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for those figures, although I find them quite horrifying. Is the Minister aware—and I am sure that he is—that this Act was brought into force to combat the rates and rent Act 1971 in Northern Ireland? While it is generally accepted that the emergency created by that strike came to an end in 1976, the emergency powers are still in force now, in 1985. How can the Minister justify that Northern Ireland's poorest families should be subjected to different and more draconian methods of reclaiming debt than people in the rest of the United Kingdom? Would the Minister not agree that it is time to revise the whole debt legislation in Northern Ireland with particular focus on the repayment of debt Act in order to bring it into line with the rest of the United Kingdom?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the noble Baroness will no doubt be aware that this particular Act has been in existence since 1971. It has been reviewed every year, including the years 1977, 1978 and 1979, when the Government supported by the noble Baroness did the reviewing and saw fit to continue it. I can tell the noble Baroness and your Lordships that it has been reviewed this year, but there are no plans 'at present to bring forward proposals to repeal this particular Act. I would stress to the noble Baroness and to your Lordships that the total amount of debt outstanding is £40 million.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I have had a case brought to my attention of a single parent in Belfast, with a child of six, taking home £40 a week as a part-time cleaner, who has £20 a week deducted from that sum under the emergency provisions to which my noble friend refers. Could this happen elsewhere in the United Kingdom, and ought it to continue to happen in Belfast?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, perhaps I may inquire further from the noble Lord and then write to him. This is a special case, as your Lordships will appreciate. There will be a combination of many factors, with many different allowances and at least two separate Acts which would empower the deductions. Possibly, if I may write to the noble Lord, we could take this further.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, can the noble Minister tell us whether there is any ceiling on the deductions which can be made from invalidity pensions, widows' pensions and old-age pensions, so that there is not total impoverishment of those people who are trying to 699 make ends meet in these circumstances? Can he also tell us what has happened to a resolution which was passed by the Assembly in May 1984 asking for a review of debt legislation? What answer has been given to the Assembly? Is it the Government's policy not to take any notice of what the Assembly says?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, the question of how these deductions are made from the various allowances is a complicated formula. May I write to the noble Baroness?

§ Baroness Jeger
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I shall need to. I shall need to do this, otherwise I shall be detaining your Lordships for a good hour this afternoon. I am sure the noble Baroness will appreciate that. We take note of motions by the Assembly, but the noble Baroness and your Lordships will also note that the 24th Report of the Public Accounts Committee, published in July 1984, recommended that the departments and bodies concerned, including the Northern Ireland Department, should continue to seek ways of improving control over debt and should keep under regular review the effectiveness of the methods which they use.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, will the noble Lord the Minister take it that the House is very concerned about the creation of bad will in a territory where we should be creating as much good will as we can? Will he also consider that the title of this Act contains the word "Emergency", and that the emergency in question, the rent and rates strike, finished in 1976? Lastly, will he look at the question of appeal, which is not known or publicised in Northern Ireland and is limited to an informal tribunal which has no statutory force to examine cases of hardship?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, on the last point, perhaps I may write to the noble Lord, since he clearly knows that there is an appeal mechanism. I am sorry that it is not more widely known. I shall endeavour to find out, and I shall write to the noble Lord. The noble Lord is quite correct in that the rent and rates strike ceased, but the noble Lord will be aware that the debts continue to pile up. As I stressed to your Lordships, at present the debts stand at £40 million. They are being paid off at an average rate, last year, of £3.15 million. Your Lordships will see that there is a colossal debt. Nevertheless, £3 million was paid last year under this Act.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that rent and rates debts are not peculiar to that part of the United Kingdom? This piece of emergency legislation, which was enacted originally to combat a particular emergency, has been in operation for nine years following the end of the emergency for which it was designed. Is that not discrimination against a part of the United Kingdom that would not be tolerated elsewhere? Will the noble Lord also confirm that under this Act child benefits can be reclaimed as part of the debt? Can he tell the House how much has been reclaimed from child benefits under this Payments for Debt Act since 1976?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, on the last point, if I can I shall, but I advise the noble Lord that it might be extremely difficult and will be at disproportionate cost. I do not believe that we are discriminating against Northern Ireland. I am sure your Lordships will agree that the scale of the problem is unique to Northern Ireland; and, as your Lordships have heard, it was brought on by a rent and rates strike which may have ceased in 1976, but the debts are still with us.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I hope that the Minister will forgive me for returning to the Dispatch Box. Will he assure the House that copies of the series of letters which he will now be signing will also be in the Library? Will he take it from the questions that he has been asked that this is a matter upon which Ministers who are dealing with it ought to be fully briefed in future because the House regards it as a very important matter indeed?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for asking this question. My noble friend has indicated to me that the case is, as I thought, that when I write to the noble Lord and to your Lordships copies of those letters should be made available in a certain form in the Library. I must confess that I had not yet discovered this, but I shall do so. That is probably one more point that the noble Lord might be worried about.
The noble Lord and your Lordships will agree that six or seven different allowances are covered under Section 1 of the 1971 Act. Perhaps not all of those are being paid, but how the allowances are covered for the purposes of Section 1 of the Act is a complicated matter. As is customary when seven different allowances are involved, I am sure that noble Lords would prefer that I should write to them. I am sure that the noble Baroness will accept that.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, I am sorry to come back again but in the first part of my question I asked whether it was not a fact that under Section 18 of the original Act—at least, that is my understanding—this provision would only continue for six months after the emergency. Has that part of the Act been repealed; and, if it has not, when will it be?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, it is under review every year, as I told the noble Lord.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, can the Minister say whether money taken direct from wages under this Act is taken on a more excessive scale in Northern Ireland than it is in the rest of the United Kingdom?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I do not have any information about money taken from wages. I understand that the main recovery methods under the 1971 Act concern the seven different benefits which are spelled out in Section 1 of the Act.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in this case the money was deducted from part-time earnings simply because the supplementary benefit payable did not cover the £20 a week which they wanted to deduct?

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, that case is a complicated one in which a number of factors will be taken into account. I have promised to write to the noble Lord, and I shall certainly do so.