§ 2.52 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, with the leave of the House, and at the request of my noble friend Lord Molloy who is in hospital—and I am sure we all hope that he will make a speedy recovery—I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have invited Mr. Gorbachev to visit the United Kingdom.
434§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, in view of the fact that the Government continually tell the House and the public that they believe in furthering closer East-West relations, and in view of the fact that the new Soviet leader, as one of his first gestures, has made an offer of a nuclear freeze, would it not be better to explore the intentions of that statement face to face in London rather than to pooh-pooh them, as leading members of the Government have done so far?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, perhaps I may first express my hope that the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, will make a speedy recovery. I should like to say this in answer to the further question from the noble Lord, Lord Hatch. Mr. Gorbachev made a visit to London only four months ago. It was the most comprehensive visit to the United Kingdom of any Soviet visitor in recent memory. We believe that contacts of the highest level clearly have their part to play. On the question of the freeze, we and our allies will study carefully Mr. Gorbachev's statement. However, our consistent objective has been to negotiate a balanced and verifiable agreement to limit and reduce intermediate range missiles in Europe.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, as the Government have declared themselves in favour of the Final Document of the United Nations special session on disarmament, will they at least assure the Soviet leader that they support the four recommendations? They are: first, the abolition of nuclear weapons; secondly, the progressive abolition of conventional weapons; thirdly, general and complete disarmament; and, fourthly, the transference of military expenditure to ending poverty in the world. Does the Minister recall that only seven years ago all the Governments of the world supported those four recommendations?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I have just explained our position on the proposal that has been put forward by Mr. Gorbachev. We welcome serious negotiations on a whole range of space and nuclear arms. We believe that there are now fresh opportunities for arms control, although substantive progress is likely to be slow.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, will the noble Baroness not agree that a meeting between Mr. Gorbachev and President Reagan would be desirable, provided that the necessary preparations are taken to ensure the possibility of maximum success in such a meeting? Secondly, can she say whether Her Majesty's Government have it in mind to support the possibility of such a meeting at as early a date as possible? In the light of the meetings which were held between Mr. Gorbachev, the Prime Minister and others while he was in this country, will the noble Baroness not agree that the visit of Mr. Gorbachev to this country, to which she referred, would be of assistance in that direction?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords, I confirm that the result of Mr. Gorbachev's visit to this country in December was an important contribution to United 435 Kingdom-Soviet dialogue. There was a wide range of parliamentary and business contacts and the talks with the Prime Minister and other Ministers were businesslike, friendly and constructive. There is of course a different outlook and approach on many questions, but there is a recognition of common interests. We believe that there is agreement on the need for further contacts at all levels.
§ Lord ChalfontMy Lords, will the Minister assure the House that if there is a proposal for an invitation to Mr. Gorbachev to visit this country, it should have some chance of bringing forward constructive ideas and policies? Will the Minister not agree that otherwise summit meetings tend to do more harm than good? On the question of the nuclear freeze, will she reassure the House that the Government are aware that a freeze of the kind now proposed would leave the West at a serious disadvantage? Will she not agree that Russians bearing gifts are to be afeared even more than Greeks?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the answer to the first part of the noble Lord's question is, yes. I am sure that these meetings need to be well prepared. For the past year or so, we have been concentrating on filling out our relations at senior ministerial and lower levels. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary met Mr. Gromyko four times in the course of last year. As to the second part of the noble Lord's question regarding a nuclear freeze, I agree with what he had to say.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, will the Minister of State agree that since Mr. Gorbachev was invited to this country as leader of a delegation from the Supreme Soviet and he was invited by the British-Soviet Parliamentary Group under the Inter-Parliamentary Union, and as he spent a long time here with a powerful delegation and has been nowhere else in the West except Canada since becoming an important man, it is now in no way our turn? Is it not important that he should now see President Reagan? Will the noble Baroness also agree that there is perhaps no Government in the world better placed than ours to help both sides make that meeting a success?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords. I hope that I have explained clearly to the House the view of the Government about the importance of the visit made by Mr. Gorbachev at Christmas and the importance that we attach to high-level visits. The arrangements about any meeting between Mr. Gorbachev and President Reagan would be a matter for the Americans; but we believe in the importance of dialogue between East and West.
§ Lord Stewart of FulhamMy Lords, if Mr. Gorbachev should come here, can we persuade him to follow the Prime Minister's example and say a few words about how he deals with industrial disputes in his country?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I am sure that if Mr. Gorbachev made any comments on that matter, they would be most informative.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, on the question of a nuclear freeze, while it is understandable that the Government do not wish to reach a freeze on intermediate range, land based nuclear weapons, is it not desirable that an all-over freeze should be reached? Will the Government look again at the question? While one continues to argue about particular weapons, agreement cannot be reached. If one is prepared to look at the matter on an all-over basis, it might still be possible to reach agreement.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the question that the noble Lord has put is quite wide of the original Question. I would confirm to him what I said in answer to another supplementary question. A freeze would mean a massive imbalance in favour of the Soviet Union.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I welcome the constructive form of the noble Baroness's Answer, and equally welcome the fact that Mr. Gorbachev's recent visit to this country had excellent results. May I ask whether she will now take back to her department and to the Government the thought that the original visit provides a foundation on which closer British-Soviet relations could be based, particularly taking into account, as she has mentioned, the various aspects of common interest discovered during that visit? Can the noble Baroness also say that she and the Government welcome the sign that the new Soviet leader has made of a willingness at least to curtail the production of Soviet nuclear missiles even if she has reservations as to the future?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I have already given my answer to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary question. On the second part, I would simply say to him that even a unilateral moratorium must be seen as an attempt to freeze the very heavy long range INF imbalance in the Soviet Union's favour.