Soccer Spectator Violence (Hansard, 4 April 1985)

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Elton)
My Lords, On 1st April my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, together with ministerial colleagues, met representatives of the Football Association and Football League to discuss soccer spectator violence.
The football authorities agreed: to examine urgently the FA's disciplinary rules; to accelerate the introduction of closed circuit television; to ensure that perimeter fencing is in place and effective; to investigate a practical scheme of membership cards for matches at home and abroad; to introduce more restrictions on the distribution of tickets for problem matches; to encourage more and better family enclosures at league grounds; and to deal severely with any bad examples set by players' behaviour on the pitch. The Government will support the football authorities.
My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will be announcing shortly, in a White Paper, conclusions following the Public Order Review and making proposals for new legislation in the autumn. These will include some new provisions which are of general application, but which will assist in preventing and controlling football hooliganism.
That legislation will also include powers to control the sale of alcohol at grounds and on transport to grounds. My right honourable friend proposes to designate particular clubs for this purpose according to their record. Meanwhile, the Government are recommending the football authorities and the clubs to ban alcohol from matches.
The Government will also support football authorities in other ways. We will extend designation under the Safety of Sports Grounds Act to clubs in Divisions 3 and 4 of the Football League, starting with grounds with a record of violence, and we will review the guidelines in the Green Code. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary will be discussing with the police what improvements can be made in their effectiveness in dealing with football violence, particularly in obtaining evidence to bring more serious charges, where appropriate—

Noble Lords
Speech!

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, there is not much more, but I am under a constraint to deliver it all.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
Injury time.

§ Lord Elton
Overtime.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
Overkill.

§ Lord Elton
I shall continue, my Lords. My right honourable friend is also encouraging magistrates to make full use of their powers, including detention and attendance centre sentences and is drawing their attention to the Court of Appeal guidelines on sentencing violent offenders; and to bail conditions forbidding attendance at matches. Finally, for matches abroad, we will consult other Governments about publicising better and perhaps strengthening last year's Council of Europe recommendation on football violence. We will review how the Diplomatic Service can help in identifying troublemakers. We are considering arrangements for people convicted of offences abroad to serve their sentences in this country. We will seek to discourage travel agents setting up special schemes for problem matches.
My Lords, that concludes what I have to say.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very full Answer. Is he aware that the trouble is caused by a small minority whose violence gives this country a bad name and spoils football for other people? I congratulate the Government on their determination to force some action now, but are they aware that the ban on alcohol in Scotland has, during the past four years, contributed to a marked improvement but that such a ban cannot by itself be a complete answer to the problem?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the troublemakers are a minority. We agree that the ban on alcohol will assist and my noble friend will have noticed that there are a number of other proposals, too.

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, may I express my thanks to the Minister for the speech—the statement—he has just made? I thought he was going to speak about banning alcohol at Tory Party Conferences. Is he aware that in this House six years ago we dealt with this matter in regard to Scotland? Certain reservations were expressed, but it has worked very well, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, said. It is a matter not just for the clubs; it is also a matter for players, managers, and the police, but they must be given the power—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Ross of Marnock
My Lords, why has it taken six years for the Government to take an interest in this problem in England and Wales? Why are Scottish supporters insulted by having one of the greatest sporting occasions transferred because the Government cannot control law and order in London? 341 Is this fair to Scottish fans who have paid deposits to hotels, spent money on buses, and so on? What are the Government going to do about that?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, in my position I can scarcely complain at the length of the noble Lord's question. Basically, I have said that the Scottish experience with the banning of alcohol has been helpful and encouraging to us. I have said what the Government propose in this respect. The noble Lord will notice, when he looks at my reply in Hansard, the very large proportion of what I said in terms of action which is to be taken by the Football Association. I think that it is right that we should look to the sport to control itself. The noble Lord will know of clubs with past histories of violence which have managed to control that violence without the recourse to law which has now become necessary.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, with regard to my noble friend's last answer, can he say whether those clubs at which disturbances frequently take place and which, therefore, involve a considerable police effort, are made to pay the full cost of that police effort?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the rules on the payment for police efforts, as I recall, relate to what is done inside the ground and not to what is done outside.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, will the noble Lord note that 20,000 Scottish supporters recently went to Spain, where the country was unfortunately defeated, and the Spanish police authorities complimented the Scottish supporters upon their excellent behaviour? In view of those circumstances, is it right and just that the hooliganism which has been evident south of the Border should be transferred to Glasgow on the advice of the Government that that fixture between Scotland and England should be transferred? Will the noble Lord answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Ross, as to whether, in view of the fact that many supporters have paid deposits on hotels, to travel companies and for transport to attend the fixture, they will be reimbursed by the Government as they have now requested the transfer of that fixture north of the Border?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am always glad to commend good behaviour, especially abroad, where it redounds to the credit of the United Kingdom as well as to that of Scotland. As to the question of the transfer of the match, the request made by the Government was that it should not be played on a bank holiday. It was the association's decision to move the venue. Under those circumstances, or indeed in other circumstances, I cannot see that there could be a question of reimbursement.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that not everybody would be critical of the association's decision to change the venue of this match? Something as traumatic as that needed to be done to draw attention to the depth of the problem which was growing almost every week that there was a football match. I do not think that suggestions of it 342 being insulting, and so on, are in keeping with the importance of the matter. I believe that the association will be supported by the whole nation. Will my noble friend keep in mind that the Government should continue to exercise any power that they have to ensure that this is kept as a top priority?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, we are very much aware of the importance of this matter, both nationally and internationally. We shall support the Football Association in its commendable efforts to put its house in order.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the short notice given for the cancellation of the venue for the Scotland-England game has thrown Scottish supporters into great confusion? Small travel agencies particularly have suffered. For many years they have handled the arrangements for Scottish supporters going to games abroad where they have behaved extremely well, as other noble Lords have said. Individuals have been severely punished financially and some small travel firms are likely to face bankruptcy as a result of the short notice for the change of venue.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, when the sport falls into the disarray which has recently affected parts of it, all those associated with it stand in danger of some sort of loss or inconvenience. That is sad, but the fact is that the damage has been done to the whole community of sport by a very few people who have done violent and bad things. It is right, as my noble friend Lord Harmar-Nicholls said, that the nation's attention should be focused on that, and national disapproval should result in better behaviour.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, the Minister mentioned attendance centres as one sanction available to the courts. Can he tell the House how many young offenders are serving attendance centre orders as a result of acts of football hooliganism and vandalism? Are the Government satisfied that that is proving to be an effective deterrent? If so, do they plan to increase the number of attendance centres, particularly the senior ones, of which there are very few at present?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am a little further from the information that the noble Lord seeks than I was last week. I am afraid that I shall have to write to him about the numbers. As to the efficacy, it is clear (is it not?) that if a fan who is also a hooligan is required to be at an attendance centre when his club is playing, that will minimise the violence done.

§ Lord Davies of Leek
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware we do not get the phenomenon of hooliganism on our rugby fields? Maybe if a little rugby was taught in our elementary and secondary schools it would do a power of good for the English and the Scots people.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord has kicked off in a match which I think I do not want to join in.

§ Lord Wilson of Langside
My Lords, can the Minister inform the House what is the size of the department at the disposal of the Minister for Sport, and how those people occupy themselves in the context of this matter?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, they occupy themselves in acquiring the information and giving the advice which it is necessary for my honourable friend to have to discharge his functions.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the noble Lord accept from me that all law-abiding citizens will welcome this example of Government interference, particularly in view of the lethargy that has been shown hitherto by the Football Association and many of the clubs? Does he agree that the virus of hooliganism is catching, and that the vandalism by members of the organisation of Conservative students is setting a bad example to law-abiding football fans?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the first half of the noble Lord's intervention was welcome; the second was not entirely relevant.

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, we have had 12 minutes on this Question. May we go on to the next one?