§ 11.21 a.m.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total expenditure incurred by the National Coal Board during Mr. MacGregor's period of office, in the processing of deep-mined, imported and surface coal, oil, tar, gas and other by-products, compared with the total production of processed coal in the five years before Mr. MacGregor assumed office; and what plans they have for additional processing.
§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)My Lords, the processing of coal and byproducts for the National Coal Board is carried out by the board's wholly-owned subsidiary NCB (Coal Products) Limited. Information on the activities of the company is available only for full financial years, the most recent being 1983–84, the year in which Mr MacGregor was appointed chairman of the National Coal Board. I have arranged for these detailed figures requested by the noble Lord to be placed in the Official Report.
345 Future production plans are a matter for the National Coal Board and the management of NCB (Coal Products) Limited.
Following are the.figures referred to above:
The net operating costs (excluding operating grants) of NCB (Coal Products) Limited in 1983–4 and the previous five years were as follows:—
Total production of coke and other manufactured solid fuels over the same period was:—
£ million 1983–84 276 1982–83 290 1981–82 303 1980–81 245 1979–80 297 1978–79 243
'000 tonnes 1983–84 3,242 1982–83 3,483 1981–82 3,280 1980–81 3,852 1979–80 4,430 1978–79 4,320
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, although I found the answer to the final part of my Question profoundly disappointing. I will not blame the Minister for that. Is he aware that it is now more than 60 years since the late Mr. Lloyd George introduced a pilot scheme at the Metropolitan Gas Works in London for the processing of coal which I supported as I have continued to do ever since? When I was Minister for Power I asked the Prime Minister to agree to the integration of oil, gas and electricity into an energy policy, but that has not been done. Is the Minister aware that millions of pounds of our taxpayers' money have been spent in the production of coal in its raw state, which is used in its raw state? As a result of this, it has been affected by geological faults, subsidence and a number of other problems that have occurred underground. In order to create, as we all wish to do, a viable and profitable mining industry, surely it would be more appropriate to use in the coal industry technologically advanced modern conditions to produce a variety of products which can be placed on the market and provide work for a vast number of people, instead of people going underground to undertake work of this kind. When will the Govenment face up to this question of processing on a big scale in order to make this industry great?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I respect the very great experience of the noble Lord in this matter. I pay tribute to the work which he has done over the years in his efforts to encourage the industry to modernise. I should tell him that since this Government came to power they have invested no less than £4 billion in the mining industry. Indeed, the Plan for Coal, about which we heard a great deal during the recent sad dispute, has been exceeded as far as investment is concerned. Of course a degree of that investment is also going towards the future technological uses to which coal and coal products can be put and which has been referred to by the noble Lord.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, with modern conditions, the time has arrived when we should cease opening new coal mines, or continuing with a large number of them, irrespective of whether they make a profit? Many of them never make a profit, never did and never will. Is he aware that we should process the coal, turning it into byproducts? When the Minister speaks about the fact that billions of pounds have been spent, he is not altogether accurate. I do not blame him for this. I ought to see the details and I think he ought to see them himself. In fact, billions of pounds have been spent on producing new mining equipment to the advantage of those who produce such equipment and make a profit on it. We ought to stop this kind of situation. For example, one of the things we can do is to liquefy the coal underground. It would save a lot of trouble. It would be more expensive to begin with but in the long run it would pay the country.
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, the objective of the Government is to ensure that the massive sums of money which have been invested in the coal industry offer a reasonable return on capital as soon as possible. I find myself in complete agreement with much of what the noble Lord has said. I am sure that his views will be to the advantage of those in the National Union of Mineworkers with whom he has contact. I think he should emphasise those points to them.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, does my noble friend not agree that, after all these long statements today, the best supplementary question is confined to a single sentence?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on employing that tactic.