§ 2.50 p.m.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what reports were received about the scale and consequences of Israel's "Iron-fist" military actions in Southern Lebanon and whether the Government's recent refusal in the United Nations to condemn them has been correctly interpreted.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have received reports from Her Majesty's embassy in Beirut and are also aware of reports produced by the Lebanese Government, international relief organisations and the news media. In the recent debate in the United Nations Security Council we made clear our concern about these reports and our view that the Israeli forces in Lebanon must respect international law. We abstained on the draft resolution because it offered nothing to promote early Israeli withdrawal or to improve the situation in Southern Lebanon in the future.
Lord ChelwoodMy Lords, is my noble friend aware of the view that Britain's abstention has done something unfortunate—that it has damaged our reputation as a trusted peace-broker in the Arab-Israeli dispute, particularly in moderate Arab eyes? In particular, I should like to ask how we are meant to square our outright and immediate condemnation of the shocking offence in South Africa a couple of weeks ago with our failure to condemn a similar instance on the same sort of scale that has occurred in Lebanese territory as a direct result of the declared policies of Israel. Is there one rule for South Africa at home and another for Israel abroad?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have deplored the appalling violence and have said that violence and counter-violence solve nothing but only add to the tragic suffering of civilians. As regards the Security Council debate, our representative at the United Nations explained our over-riding concern that the debate should contribute to the breaking of the appalling cycle of violence in Southern Lebanon. But the Lebanese draft resolution was unhelpful; it offered nothing to promote early Israeli withdrawal or to reduce tension, and contained no constructive, forward-looking elements.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, can the noble Baroness say why it is necessary or desirable to condemn the State of Israel for seeking to ensure its security? Is she aware—no doubt she is—that in recent months the State of Israel has lost more than 600 soldiers? It does not do that sort of thing for fun. It does it in order to protect itself against a possible enemy. There are several enemies in the Arab states and, apparently, one or two in this Assembly, I regret to say. If the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, who often raises this matter and who seems to hate the very name of the State of Israel—
§ Lord Shinwell—is so anxious to help in the matter, why, instead of talking, does he not go there and join his friends in the PLO and do a bit of fighting?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have welcomed Israeli assurances that they will withdraw their forces from the Lebanon and we look for their early, orderly and complete withdrawal. At the same time, we have deplored the violence in Southern Lebanon.
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that this "Iron-fist" policy involves indiscriminate shooting at civilians and sometimes the killing of women and children? Is she aware that the Government's excuses for not condemning this at the Security Council were wholly unconvincing and brought no credit on themselves or the country?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the answer to the first part of the noble Lord's question is, yes, we are aware of the violence, and I have stated our reasons for our abstention at the United Nations.
§ The Earl of OnslowMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Israeli action in killing women and children has fanaticised the Shiah Moslems of Southern Lebanon in a way that, until the Israeli invasion, was not actually thought possible? Is my noble friend further aware that the Israeli behaviour, far from protecting their own security, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has in fact damaged that security by the paranoid and ruthless reaction to perfectly innocent civilians in somebody else's territory? Furthermore, can my noble friend possibly imagine what would happen if we behaved in Dundalk like the Israelis behave in Lebanon?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I hope that I have made it quite plain in what I have said that we have already condemned the appalling violence in Southern Lebanon. We believe that violence and counter-violence will solve nothing and will only add to the tragic suffering of civilians. I think I would rather not be drawn into my noble friend's other suggestion.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, will the noble Baroness condemn and reject the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, that there is any comparison between South Africa and Israel? Will she not agree that Israel's only concern is to live in peace and security so that its villages and farms in Northern Galilee can go about their business without being fired upon from over the border? Will she be very wary indeed about giving any kind of support to the Shi'ite fanatics who are simply the tools of Iran, whose purpose is to de-stabilise the whole of the Middle East.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as the noble Lord will know, the British Government's policy is to ensure Israel's right to exist; but I think I have fully explained our policy with regard to Israeli troop withdrawal in Southern Lebanon.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, the noble Baroness said that our reason for not voting on the recent United Nation's resolution was that it contained nothing to help Israel withdraw. Can she please tell the House 122 what it is that the Government think that resolution ought to have contained, or could have contained, which would have made it easier for Israel to withdraw?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I do not think this is the proper forum for speculating about what might or might not have been in the United Nation's resolution. What we want to see, of course, is the early, orderly and complete withdrawal of Israeli troops.
§ Lord CaradonMy Lords, in view of the suffering and bloodshed on such a widespread scale, caused by the invasion, will the Minister assure us that our Government will give every support to the efforts of the United Nations to restore and maintain peace in the Lebanon and bring some comfort to those who have suffered so very severely?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords. We admire UNIFIL's peace-keeping efforts under difficult circumstances. We already make a substantial financial contribution to this end and provide logistic support from Cyprus.
Viscount BuckmasterMy Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that what is required is a total withdrawal, not only military but also political—in fact, a total disengagement by Israel from every facet of Lebanese life?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I have stated the British Government's position on this matter. We look for an early and complete withdrawal of Israeli troops.
§ Lord AnnanMy Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that however unwise it was for the Israeli Government to advance beyond the Litani River in defence of her own kibbutzim which were being attacked from Lebanese territory, and however wrong the actions of Prime Minister Begin and Mr. Sharon in taking the advance right up to Beirut, nevertheless the Government's action in abstaining on this resolution was the right one in that it accepts that there is neither right nor wrong in many of these questions in the dispute between Israel and her neighbours?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Annan, that it is a very complex situation. I hope that I have set out very fully the reasons why the Government felt that it was right to abstain on that resolution.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, may I put another question?
§ Lord ShinwellThank you very much, my Lords. Has it occurred to the noble Baroness and other Members of your Lordship's House that, in the event of this country having to face aggression, we shall be compelled to do in retaliation things much worse than anything Israel has ever done? To talk about the action of Israel in comparison with others is talking in the most futile fashion. In any event, it will not be of any value. If the Middle East question is to be solved the 123 only people who can solve it are the Arab states themselves. If they can agree among themselves—
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, if Israel could agree with the Lebanon, if Iraq could agree with Iran, and so on, there might be a solution.
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we condemned the Israeli invasion in 1982. We continue to urge an end to the occupation with the minimum of delay. We believe that delaying the full withdrawal may damage the long-term Israeli and Lebanese interests in a peaceful border.