General Consumer Council(Northern Ireland) Order 1984 (Hansard, 31 October 1984)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Draft General Consumer Council (Northern Ireland) Order 1984, a draft of which was laid before your Lordships on 22nd October this year be approved.
The purpose of the order before us this evening is to provide more effective consumer protection for the people of Northern Ireland. Hitherto, consumer protection has been divided in the main between two 597 statutory bodies—the Northern Ireland Electricity Consumers Council and the Northern Ireland Transport Users' Committee and one non-statutory body—the Northern Ireland Consumer Council. The non-statutory Northern Ireland Consumer Council advises Government on consumer protection matters, carries out and publishes research and maintains links with other United Kingdom consumer bodies, including the National Consumer Council. The statutory Northern Ireland Electricity Consumers Council has played an active role both in assisting people with complaints and in considering and in making recommendations on any matter affecting the distribution of electricity—including charges—and the provision of new and improved services. The last of the trio, the statutory Northern Ireland Transport Users' Committee, deals with road and rail services and facilities provided at airports.
This order replaces a previous proposal for a draft order which was withdrawn in February 1983 after misgivings were expressed in three main areas: first, that electricity consumers would have less effective protection, particularly in relation to individual complaints; secondly, that the proposed budget of about £118,000 then available to the existing bodies, and which it was proposed to transfer to the new body, would be insufficient for the new body to fulfil the necessary functions; and, thirdly, that any consumer council must have a clear power to deal with individual complaints. The proposal was considered by the Northern Ireland Assemby, where these misgivings were fully aired, and resulted in the Assembly refusing to "take note".
In the face of such substantial reservations the then Secretary of State, my right honourable friend, withdrew the proposal and asked the then Minister of State, my honourable friend Mr. Adam Butler, to examine how best the matter might be taken forward. Mr. Butler's examination resulted in the formation of an independent advisory group of experts with the following terms of reference: To review the arrangements for consumer protection in Northern Ireland currently provided by the Northern Ireland Consumer Council, the Northern Ireland Electricity Consumers Council and the Northern Ireland Transport Users' Committee, having regard to (a) the principle that overall, consumers in Northern Ireland should enjoy no less a standard of consumer protection than consumers in other parts of the United Kingdom; (b) the special interest of consumers of the services provided by monopoly public utilities (but not the Post Office); (c) the desirability of devising a system which, having regard to the scale of Northern Ireland, will fill any gaps in the existing arrangements and provide a consumer protection service which is cost-effective, economical, comprehensive and well co-ordinated and to make recommendations". The group reported in September 1983 and its report, together with a discussion paper prepared by the Department of Economic Development, was published on 19th October 1983. They were subsequently considered by the Northern Ireland Assembly and were, together with the Assembly's recommendations placed in the Library of your Lordships' House on 16th January 1984. The response of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was placed in the Library on 9th April 1984.
The order before us today is based almost entirely upon the recommendations of the independent 598 advisory group and those of the Northern Ireland Assembly, whose Economic Development Committee met with consumer interests in the Province. Meetings were also held with representatives of the Northern Ireland Members in another place, whose views were, we understood, in harmony with the recommendations.
I briefly turn now to the detail of the order. As your Lordships will see, it is not lengthy, extending only to eight articles and three schedules. It seeks to replace the three existing consumer protection bodies: the Northern Ireland Consumer Council, the Northern Ireland Electricity Consumers Council and the Northern Ireland Transport Users' Committee by a single General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland. Article 1 provides that the order shall be brought into operation in two stages to enable the council to be appointed in December 1984 and to engage its staff and acquire premises so that business can commence on 1st April 1985, when the order will become fully operative. Articles 3 to 7 provide for the establishment of the General Consumer Council and set out its functions. It is made clear that the council will have the power to deal with individual complaints where this is appropriate or where other avenues of redress have failed. Its research and education role is stressed and its function in relation to transport, electricity and agricultural marketing schemes made under the Agricultural Marketing (Northern Ireland) Order 1892 are clearly set down.
Your Lordships will recollect that during the debate in this House on the Agricultural Marketing (Northern Ireland) Order on 22nd July 1982, my noble friend Lord Gowrie said that that order made no provision for the formation and role of a consumer committee to report on the effects of any scheme on consumer interests, but that it was intended that that role would be undertaken by an amalgamated consumer protection body looking after all consumer interests in Northern Ireland. The order enables the proposed new council to fulfil this important function.
Provision is also made for the abolition of the Northern Ireland Electricity Consumers Council and the Northern Ireland Transport Users' Committee, whose powers and duties are subsumed into the new council. Article 8 deals with repeals and amendments and repeals are listed in Schedules 2 and 3. Arrangements are made in Schedule 1 for the appointment of a chairman, deputy chairman and members to the council and for the ordering of its business, the employment of staff, acquisition of premises,. provision of funding and accountability.
One of the main points of difficulty with the 1982 proposal for a draft order was the feeling that the £118,000 provided was inadequate. To meet the expenses arising from the present proposals a sum not exceeding £200,000 has been allocated. I am sure that your Lordships will agree with me that this considerably larger sum provides a sound financial base for the council; indeed it is rather more proportionately than the amount received by comparable consumer protection bodies in Great Britain; but against this the Northern Ireland General Consumer Council will have responsibilities which are in Great Britain exercised by the nationalised 599 industries' consumer councils, and there is some leeway to be made up.
The council will be required to establish four mandatory groups to exercise particular responsibility and report to the council in relation to transport, food, electricity and energy (other than electricity). There will be cross-membership between the electricity and energy groups. It is also empowered to establish such other non-mandatory groups as it considers necessary. The council will have power to co-opt to these groups persons with relevant expertise. Such persons will not have voting powers, nor will their number exceed the number of council members in any group, thus ensuring that control of its affairs remains with the council yet giving it access to specialised knowledge and advice. The Department of Economic Development proposes to take power to make subordinate legislation, subject, of course, to negative resolution, to reduce, after consultation with the council, the number of mandatory groups, should the council consider this to be necessary.
In commending this order to your Lordships I would emphasise that it is the result of very protracted consultation and consideration and is firmly based on the recommendations of an expert independent advisory group, whose recommendations have been endorsed by the Northern Ireland Assembly and in the main by those interested in consumer protection in the Province. The Government feel that it will ensure that consumers in Northern Ireland have the safeguards which we would all wish should be given to them and that it should provide a sound base upon which to build for the future. I beg to move.

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, I wish to thank the noble Lord the Minister for explaining the order to the House. We feel sure that it will be a significant contribution to consumer protection in Northern Ireland, and for that reason we are delighted to support it. My understanding is that the consumer in Northern Ireland has historically been disadvantaged and that, indeed, up to recent times and up to today, there are great areas of important interest in the Province where the voice of the consumer is silent. But all that will change. The independent advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor Colin Campbell reviewed the position, concluded that the kind of criticism to which I have referred was justified, and recommended a thoroughgoing reform and. in particular, the setting up of a single organisation, the General Consumer Council, to represent consumer interest in Northern Ireland and to be funded by the Government.
I have not come across a single word of opposition to this basic recommendation. We are therefore very glad that the Government have gone down the road recommended by the advisory group. The order which is before the House tonight will establish the single permanent statutory body. Its remit will be wide, and it will be funded by the Government. I am particularly pleased to note that the funding will be of the order of £200,000 a year. I had heard with some disappointment that it might be of a lower order.
600 We are attracted by the idea of the General Consumer Council distributing its work between the specialist groups that will look after special areas of importance. As the Minister explained, there will be four mandatory groups. The remit of that relating to transport will, I understand, include the facilities for passengers travelling to and from Northern Ireland. Then there will be groups for electricity, energy and food. We believe that the department was probably correct in setting up the two separate groups for electricity and energy, although there has been a view that they should be merged in one group. We note the special arrangement in Article 7 in relation to the agricultural marketing schemes. We hope and trust that the arrangement will work well in practice.
So, while giving the order our full and wholehearted support, I would ask the Minister four questions. I believe that he has answered my first question. How does this level of spending of £200,000 compare with expenditure incurred by the Welsh and Scottish consumer councils? I am almost certain that he explained that it compared favourably. Secondly, at what rate will members' allowances and expenses for attending meetings of the council and attending its group meetings be paid? Will there be parity with the allowance paid to the members of the Welsh and Scottish councils? Thirdly, we understand that housing is an area of great importance in Northern Ireland. Indeed, Professor Campbell described it as being one of the areas of (and I quote his words) "priority concern". I would be interested to know why the Secretary of State decided against setting up a mandatory specialist group for this subject.
My final question is this. As experience may show to the Government that there is a need to increase the number of mandatory groups, should not the order contain power for the Secretary of State, after consultation with the council, to increase their number? Certainly the order gives the Secretary of State the power to reduce the number. I wonder whether he should also have incorporated the power to increase the number. With those few questions, we give the order our full support.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, your Lordships will be grateful for the attention and careful interest that has been taken by the noble Lord in examining this order. It is, we believe, very important. It is detailed, and it is not immediately easy to understand. I pay tribute therefore to the noble Lord for the study that he has undertaken. I thank him for his comments. He is correct. The order is indeed comprehensive.
The noble Lord asked me four questions. He did mention one of the groups, the transport group, and he referred—I hope that I have quoted him correctly—to passengers travelling to and from Northern Ireland.

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, yes.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, I understand that this is indeed so for passengers travelling by sea so far as the port of Great Britain is concerned. I asked this question myself this morning. Whether this includes the Isle of Man, I am not sure. But, anyway, it relates to those travelling by boat. So far as air travel is 601 concerned, the transport group will cover facilities at the airport. But I understand that once the passengers are on the aircraft this becomes a matter for the air users' consumer council which will be familiar to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, from whom we hear so much. I understand that the transport group will cover only air passengers while they are at the airport in Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord asked me four detailed and brief questions, to which I hope I can give him satisfactory answers this evening. I understand that the expenditure that we propose of the sum of up to £200,000 is rather more in comparative terms than the expenditure for both the Scottish and Welsh consumer councils. Of course, the noble Lord will bear in mind the remarks that I made that the Northern Ireland General Consumer Council will also be dealing with one or two points that might not be dealt with on a strictly comparable basis. Nevertheless, it is, in comparison, larger and more generous than in Scotland and in Wales.
Secondly, members' fees and allowances will be in parity with the allowances for members of the Scottish and Welsh councils.
The noble Lord asked about housing. I understand that the council is empowered and may set up a non-mandatory group if it feels that this is necessary. But, of course, the noble Lord will be aware that there are other avenues available to groups in Northern Ireland to speak to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and my honourable friend in another place. Fourthly, the noble Lord asked whether the council has power to increase groups. Indeed, it does have power to increase its groups should it feel the necessity for this—does the noble Lord wish to intervene?

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, I was wondering whether the Secretary of State himself, after consultation with the council, could increase the number of mandatory groups.

§ Lord Lyell
My Lords, my winged messenger advises me that this is entirely up to the council. I understand that the mechanics are set out in the schedule. But this will always be done in consultation with the Secretary of State or the relevant Minister. I am advised that this is entirely up to the council.
I am very grateful for the detail with which the noble Lord has examined this order. I am sure your Lordships would not wish me to detain the House further this evening. I am very grateful for the attention that has been paid by the House to this order, and I commend it.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, in moving that this House do adjourn during pleasure, I think I ought to give your Lordships some idea of the time we might resume. We shall not be resuming before about 10.20 p.m., but the exact time of resumption will be put on the annunciators in both Houses. This is so that the various businesses in the two Houses can be co-ordinated.
I beg to move that this House do adjourn during pleasure.