NATO (Hansard, 29 October 1984)

§ Lord Boothby
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)
My Lords, before I answer the noble Lord's Question, perhaps I may refer to the fact that it was exactly 60 years ago today that the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, was first elected as a Member of another place. Since then he has been continuously a Member of one or other House of Parliament and I hope that I am not out of order in offering the noble Lord the congratulations and good wishes of the House on a notable parliamentary anniversary.
The Answer to the noble Lord's Question is yes. The Alliance has safeguarded peace in the North Atlantic area and the freedom of its members for 35 years. It remains in excellent health. I am confident that the Alliance will continue successfully to provide the foundation for our security in future.

§ Lord Boothby
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount the Leader of the House very much indeed for what he has said about me. I should also like to take the opportunity to thank your Lordships in all parts of the House for your kindness to me over the last 25 years. I must confess that I am quite pleased that I have sat in one House or the other for 60 unbroken years.
I should now like to put a supplementary question to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House. Does the noble Viscount agree that the sheer pace of modern technological development makes it difficult and rather dangerous to define so-called conventional weapons, and, even more, to try to differentiate between conventional weapons and nuclear weapons? Conventional weapons are now developing at such a pace that they very nearly outstrip the so-called nuclear weapons. If they were ever used, they would do such damage to the world and to their targets as is almost unthinkable. Does the noble Viscount agree that, by seeming to make another war waged by conventional weapons okay and all right, the advocates of such conventional weapons are really damaging the cause of peace?
In conclusion, will the noble Viscount agree that it really is no use talking about limiting nuclear weapons and letting conventional weapons increase to a great extent? At all costs we must prevent another war happening because if we do not, we shall all be for it. Will the noble Viscount agree that if we say to the 344 Americans, as some would have us say, "Get out, close your bases; we are going to phase out our nuclear deterrent", the only possible result would be the fall, the crash of NATO and with it the end of democracy in Britain and all the countries of Western Europe? Our only hope is to get an agreed defence policy within NATO, and for that I am sure that the noble Viscount shares my gratitude that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, is at NATO and is more likely to achieve that objective—which is really the objective of life or death—than is anyone else we have.

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord and I am sure that he voices sentiments which Members in all parts of the House would accept, though they may have very differing views as to how the objectives should be achieved. I believe we all agree that overall security is what matters if we are to preserve the peace, and a strong alliance involving the Americans as well as ourselves is of crucial importance to us. I am very grateful that in this connection the noble Lord referred to my noble friend Lord Carrington, with whom I have had a very long and close political career, whose appointment I think many people in this country of all political parties will have greatly welcomed. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, very much for an experienced supplementary question on what is a very auspicious day for him.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, may we also add our congratulations to the noble Lord on this anniversary. The noble Lord has made a significant contribution to our public affairs over a very long period. He has always been a stimulating and effective debater in both Chambers, and we hope that he will continue to attend this House for many years in order to enliven our proceedings.
Can the noble Viscount indicate what is the Government's response to two recent statements: first, that Trident expenditure is crowding out expenditure on conventional forces and could lead to a cut in the British Army of the Rhine; and, secondly, that in the view of a Senate motion in the United States, 90,000 United States troops should be removed from Europe unless Europe is willing to pull its weight more effectively? As I understand it, that is what the Senate decided. Can the noble Viscount reaffirm the Government's commitment to an adequate conventional force, as this is surely our principal means of raising the nuclear threshold? That seems to me to be a very important point.

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. From now on I am sure that the House will agree that I should confine myself to answering the specific questions put to me. Regarding the noble Lord's two points, first, so far as Trident expenditure crowding out conventional forces is concerned, I think I should simply say that the Government remain totally committed to our conventional forces as part of the NATO Alliance. I think it would be very damaging indeed if, through any action of this Government or of any European Government, any credence was given to that particular point of view in America. It would be very damaging, I believe, both to Europe and to America, and to the whole free world in the long run.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, may I be allowed to associate my noble friend and myself with the tribute paid to the noble Lord, Lord Boothby? Some of us recall the many expressions of opinion by the noble Lord in another place, often controversial but always eloquently expressed, and, in a surprisingly large proportion of cases, fully justified by subsequent events.
May I ask the noble Viscount whether he would agree that one of the surest ways of weakening and dividing NATO would be for Britain unilaterally to renounce all nuclear weapons? Would he also agree that the record has shown that in the last four years the opinions of the European Governments in NATO on subjects of arms control, disarmament and East-West relations have shown better judgment than those of the United States Administration? Will he therefore confirm that one of the purposes of reviving the Western European Union is to ensure that the European input into NATO's decisions on these subjects is a good deal stronger than it has been in the past?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. On his first point, he will appreciate that I profoundly agree with him, and, of course, the Government's policy makes that abundantly clear. There can be no question so far as this Government are concerned of any unilateral renunciation of nuclear weapons, or of other weapons, at all. So far as his point about the Western European Union is concerned, of course it is important that there should be a European voice together with that of our American allies, and the stronger that voice and the stronger we express it in the alliance, I believe, the better for the alliance as a whole.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, may I join in the congratulations which have been so felicitously expressed to the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, on his diamond jubilee? May I also express the hope that in due course he will join my noble friend Lord Shinwell in a centenary? However, may I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord's supplementary remarks? May I ask the noble Viscount whether he is aware that while NATO depends so much on nuclear weapons it is more likely to bring about our extinction than our survival?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, the noble Lord will know very well that I do not agree with him, and therefore the answer to his question must be, no.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, while totally agreeing with the opinions of my noble friend and with the congratulations that he has received, and also with the remarks of the noble Viscount the Leader of this House, may I ask the noble Viscount whether he would accept the philosophical point that really no Government should ever state that they are satisfied with anything? Is he aware that when a Government start to say that they are satisfied with anything it is often a rather late stage leading towards the fall of that Government, which would be extremely unwelcome to me, at any rate? Will he please persuade his friends never to be satisfied with anything?—because then I think we may advance further.

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I am delighted to hear the contribution and the affirmation by the noble Viscount of his continued support for this Government. So far as being satisfied is concerned, I do not think that anyone who has been a Minister for, it seems, as long as I have now could ever be satisfied with anything that is happening at any time, but I try to be as satisfied as I can.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, although it sounds strange coming from this side of the House, may I ask the noble Minister whether he thinks that NATO is likely to become a more effective body now that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, is in charge of it?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, those of us who know the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, I believe would profoundly think, yes, and we certainly wish him well in that endeavour.

§ Lord Boothby
My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount, in conclusion, whether he realises that I tabled this Question in order to find out whether Her Majesty's Government had learned the lesson of the 1930s, when some of us—not very many—told Parliament what was happening in Germany and what could, and must, be done to stop it? Neither the Government nor the Opposition paid any heed to our warnings, and the result was the second world war. Now, just half a century later, I wanted to know whether the Government are heeding similar warnings in a very similar situation, and I am satisfied that they are.

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I believe that both this Government and the American Government, and Governments throughout Europe, by their work in NATO, have recognised that deficiency from the past. Even I, though much younger than the noble Lord, having fought throughout the last war, am in a position to realise the failures which perhaps caused that particular conflict.