HL Deb 18 October 1984 vol 455 cc1087-90

3.54 p.m.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government when they expect an agreement on sea fisheries to be concluded between the European Economic Community and Spain; and whether it is intended to form part of the arrangements for Spain's proposed accession to the Community.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the European Community already has a framework agreement on fisheries with Spain as a non-member country. Under this agreement, consultations take place annually on the detailed arrangements to apply. The framework agreement will cease to apply once Spain becomes a member of the Community. The terms of Spanish accession, including any necessary transitional arrangements, are currently the subject of negotiation between the Community and Spain.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. The common fisheries policy agreed by the 10 existing members of the Community was concluded with great difficulty only last year, and it is to last for 10 years. Is it the Government's intention not to reopen that agreement, but to make additional arrangements for the very large Spanish fishing fleet, bearing in mind that this is one of the most important issues for Britain arising from Spain's accession?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, indeed, I can answer my noble friend by saying that is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to reopen discussion on the common fisheries policy, agreement on which was reached after such very long negotiations. My noble friend says that it is to run for 10 years, but I think that it can also run for a further 10 years after that. The Community's agreed position is that Spain ought in principle to get no more access to species of fish, subject to total allowable catches and quotas, than she already has, and that she should continue to be tightly controlled by a licensing system for a long transitional period.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the statement which he has just made will be very well received by the fishermen in this country, because they are very worried indeed about the situation that might arise if Spain were given more fishing rights than she has at present? I hope that Her Majesty's Government will stick to the principle that Spain's fishing rights should stay as they are under the present agreement, irrespective of whether or not she joins the Community?.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the Government recognise the truth of what the noble Lord has said; namely, the concern among those who realise that of course there is greater capacity in the Spanish fishing fleet. It may perhaps be helpful if I make the point that we very strongly believe that the Spanish fishing fleet needs to be significantly reduced both before accession to the Community and after accession in order to ensure that the size of the fleet in European Community waters matches the opportunities. That is a major point in the negotiations.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, I should like to draw the noble Lord's attention to a point which may seem small, but which is of very great importance to the people concerned. Is the noble Lord aware that the Shetland fishermen have a rather different view of the common fisheries policy from that expressed by the Scottish Fishermen's Association? Is the noble Lord also aware that in Shetland there was disappoinment that the committee of your Lordships' House, which has recently been visiting Scotland, was unable to visit Shetland? Is he also aware that the hake fishery off the north of Shetland was traditionally one of the Spanish main fisheries? I should, therefore, like to ask the noble Lord to give me an assurance that the views of the Shetland fishermen will be taken into account in any provisional arrangements or new agreements which are brought into effect as a result of Spain joining the EEC.

Lord Belstead

Yes, my Lords, I can certainly give an assurance that the views of the Shetland fishermen will be taken into account in the same way as we are determined to protect the interests of all United Kingdom fishermen.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House whether this is a matter which is to be discussed in the Foreign Affairs Council in Luxembourg next week, on 23rd October? Can the noble Lord say whether any new offer is to be made to Spain at that meeting, and can he indicate the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to that? Would the new offer, if it were accepted, affect our own fishing position?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, will know, the European Commission has recently made certain suggestions for a limited system of licensing to control fishing by member states outside their main fishing areas. I am bound to say that Her Majesty's Government feel that that is a proposal that could be useful. But having said that, it is true to say that the Commission's ideas on this matter have not yet received enough support among member states to form the basis of an approach to Spain and Portugal in the negotiations. However, this licensing proposal remains on the table within the Community and may yet come into play at a later stage. I am not aware that it will necessarily come into play next week.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, in view of what the noble Lord said previously, it is most important that a very careful assessment be made of the effect of the new proposal on the British fishing industry. Will the noble Lord give us a very clear undertaking that that will be done?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the answer to that question is, yes, most certainly. Of course the proposal from the Commission is not for a generalised scheme of licensing; it is of the limited kind that I sought to explain in my previous reply.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that his reply to my supplementary question is most satisfactory and will be welcomed by fishermen throughout Britain? Are the Government concerned that the Community pond might be returned to a state of uncertainty and confusion if last year's hard won agreement were to be upset or undermined, and that it would also lead to a serious loss of opportunities for the British fishing industry?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I entirely understand what my noble friend has said. I do not think that I can give any more information in my reply now, because the negotiations are taking place at present and I do not think that it would be helpful to do so. However, I repeat: Her Majesty's Government fully understand the force of my noble friend's final supplementary question.

Lord Thomas of Swynnerton

My Lords, may I respectfully, and I hope not unpatriotically, remind my noble friend the Minister that the Spanish appear to be a nation which has higher respect than ourselves for fish as a species, because they have not yet reached the bathos of the fish finger?