HL Deb 28 November 1984 vol 457 cc908-13

3.34 p.m.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement on the outcome of a series of meetings my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary has had with the Spanish Foreign Minister about Gibraltar which is being made in another place by my right honourable and learned friend. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement about the outcome of the series of meetings I have had with the Spanish Foreign Minister, Sr. Moran, about Gibraltar.

"At the most recent meeting in Brussels on 27th November, we reached agreement about the way to put into effect the terms of the Lisbon Statement of 10th April 1980. I am arranging for a copy of yesterday's communiqué to be placed in the Library of the House.

"As a result of that agreement, the specific measures which I shall describe in a moment will be implemented by a date to be agreed, but not later than 15th February 1985.

"From the date of implementation, direct communications between Gibraltar and Spain will be restored. This means that there will be free movement of people, vehicles and goods.

"From the date of implementation, Spaniards in Gibraltar will enjoy those European Community rights which would otherwise become available only from the day of Spain's accession to the Community. From the same date, Gibraltarians in Spain will enjoy similar rights.

"The legislative proposals necessary for this will be introduced in Gibraltar and in Spain. This arrangement does not affect the derogations and transitional periods which will have been agreed between Spain and the Community. These will of course be applicable to Gibraltar, in particular as regards the free movement of labour.

"The range of matters to be covered will include freedom to enter and settle, rights of establishment, trade union rights, together with the right to provide a service and to purchase land and property.

"In addition, the Spanish Government has agreed that it will take the early actions necessary to allow safe and effective air communications within the air space in the region of Gibraltar.

"On the day that communications are restored, the Spanish Foreign Minister and I will meet to begin the negotiating process envisaged by the Lisbon Statement. That process will be aimed at overcoming all the differences between us over Gibraltar and at promoting co-operation on a mutually beneficial basis on economic, cultural, touristic, aviation, military and environmental matters. The Chief Minister of Gibraltar, Sir Joshua Hassan, will, of course, accompany me to that meeting.

"Sr. Moran has told me that the Spanish side will raise the issue of sovereignty in these negotiations, as they are entitled to do on the basis provided by the Lisbon Statement itself. Yesterday's communiqué makes it equally plain that the British Government will fully maintain its commitment to honour the wishes of the people of Gibraltar, as set out in the preamble to the Gibraltar constitution. That commitment stands unchanged. Sr. Moran, for his part, has made clear the importance that he, too, attaches to the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.

"Sr. Moran and I agreed about the importance of establishing practical co-operation between the people of Gibraltar and the neighbouring region. The Chief Minister of Gibraltar has expressed the same view. This will be of benefit to all sides. It will provide an important opportunity for Gibraltar's economy to develop and diversify.

"This agreement marks the development of a new stage in relations between Britain and Spain, who are fellow NATO allies and prospective partners in the European Community.

"Throughout this series of talks, I have kept in the closest touch with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, Sir Joshua Hassan. I am most grateful to him for his consistently wise advice and support.

"In his statement yesterday, Sir Joshua Hassan said that he welcomed the agreement and believed that it will be beneficial to the people of Gibraltar. In his view, it will be a first step in the process of normalisation and fruitful co-operation between Gibraltar and the immediate vicinity for the benefit of all.

"Sir Joshua Hassan described this agreement as an honourable outcome. I entirely endorse that judgment. I firmly believe that the agreement is in the interests of Gibraltar. The interests of Gibraltar and its people have always been, and will remain, of central importance to the British Government".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement and we warmly welcome the decision to re-open the frontier and to restore communications, including air communications, which are of considerable importance to us. We note that this concession is being made in return for Britain's willingness to discuss sovereignty and that sovereignty is to be on the agenda, although the Statement also says that the Government, will fully maintain its commitment to honour the wishes of the people of Gibraltar". We further note that the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, Sir Joshua Hassan, has given his full support to the plan and will accompany the Foreign Secretary to the negotiations, which will obviously be wide-ranging and which we shall follow with great interest.

These talks will be crucial, and we wish them every success. Would the noble Baroness not agree, however, that the critical issue will be that of sovereignty? May we assume that if that topic is on the agenda it is negotiable in some form, and that some such arrangement as lease-back is now to be contemplated by Her Majesty's Government? Further, does the communiqué's reference to,

the wishes of the people of Gibraltar", mean that they will be enabled to vote on any draft settlement before it is finally ratified? Are we to assume that this is what Sir Joshua Hassan supported when he described the agreement as, "an honourable outcome"?

We welcome the progress that has been made, but I believe it is right and indeed crucial to put the major issues into perspective at an early stage.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, we on these Benches would like to congratulate the Foreign Secretary warmly on arriving at what is obviously a large measure of agreement on the vexed question of the future of Gibraltar. On the face of it, it is surely a very considerable achievement and should do much to ease the prospects for Spain's entry into the Common Market. Unfortunately, and as the noble Lord. Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, has just said, the whole wretched question of sovereignty still remains open.

I wonder whether the Government would admit to a certain similarity between the problems posed by Gibraltar and those posed by the Falklands Islands? In both cases there are rival claims founded on legality and nationality, on the one hand, and on sentiment, history and geographical propinquity, on the other. Therefore, is it not conceivable that both sides, while not abandoning their claims to absolute sovereignty, should at least push such claims into the background for the moment and work, rather, for something which I believe is possible: some kind of equal, special relationship between the contested areas and both contesting parties? I hesitate to suggest that Andorra, wedged between Spain and France, and enjoying perfectly good relations with both, is an example of the kind of thing I am suggesting, but at least it makes one think.

So far as Gibraltar is concerned, the determination of the tiny community to remain British undoubtedly poses a real problem; but I cannot see why we should not in the long run be able to persuade that community (and the communiqué leads me to believe that I am not being unjustifiably hopeful) to accept some kind of compromise, perhaps on the lines I have been suggesting, which is surely now, from a political point of view, an absolute necessity.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, for his welcome to the Statement, and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for his welcome and for his congratulations on the achievement of my right honourable and learned friend.

Both noble Lords have raised the question of sovereignty. The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, asked whether or not sovereignty was going to be negotiated. The position is that the Lisbon Statement allows any subject to be raised by either side. We recognise that the Spanish side will wish to raise the subject of sovereignty as part of the negotiations, which they are entitled to do.

We, for our part, have stated our position quite clearly. It is set out in the 1969 Gibraltar Constitution. The relevant extract from the preamble to that constitution reads as follows: Her Majesty's Government have given assurances to the people of Gibraltar that Gibraltar will remain part of Her Majesty's Dominions unless and until an Act of Parliament otherwise provides, and furthermore that Her Majesty's Government will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their freely and democratically expressed wishes". The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, asked how we would judge the views of the people of Gibraltar. I would say to him that Gibraltar opinion would be reflected through their elected representatives in government. It is with this end in mind that consultations have been going on very closely with Sir Joshua Hassan, as the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, during the course of the negotiations with Sr. Moran.

The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, asked me whether or not there was a parallel to be drawn with the issue of the Falkland Islands. I regret that he should even suggest such a parallel, because there is no parallel at all between the two cases. They are historically, legally and constitutionally different cases. The fact of the matter is that Spain is an ally in NATO and is a prospective partner in the European Community, and that successive Spanish Governments have stated publicly that they will pursue their claim by peaceful means. The Spanish Foreign Minister has spoken of the need to respect both the interests and the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us will welcome the fact that somewhat belatedly, after an interval of four and a half years, restrictions whose withdrawal was promised then, and which should never have been imposed, are now being withdrawn? Is she also aware that some of us are a little concerned that the subject of the sovereignty of what has, after all, been British territory for 270 years should be thought worthy of discussion? Will my noble friend make it plain, quite apart from her very clear statement with reference to the 1969 Constitution, that Her Majesty's Government have no sympathy with the demand by the Spanish Government to acquire territory which has been British longer than it was ever Spanish?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter agrees that we should welcome the fact that there is now a date set for the full opening of the frontier between Gibraltar and Spain. With regard to his point about sovereignty, I hope that I have fully set out the position on this. I am sure that my noble friend knows, as he has read the Lisbon Statement of 1980, that it is possible under the Lisbon Statement for the Spanish side to raise the question of sovereignty. I have no doubt that they will raise this matter at some stage. Equally, as the Statement and the communiqué following from the negotiations between my right honourable and learned friend and Sr. Moran made clear, we have made it absolutely plain that we will stand by and maintain our commitment to honour the wishes of the people of Gibraltar.

With regard to the historical point which my noble friend raised, the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which ceded Gibraltar to Britain in perpetuity gives Spain the right of first refusal to the territory should Britain ever decide to withdraw from Gibraltar. Any consideration of the future status of Gibraltar must clearly take this into account. The views of the people of Gibraltar are at present not in doubt.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary really has to be congratulated on his achievement. I have two specific questions to ask the noble Baroness. In effect, it seems that we are advancing to 15th February 1985, at the latest, arrangements which would have had to come into effect on accession by Spain to the Community. Can the noble Baroness tell me what would happen if accession were delayed, perhaps through the action of other countries outside our control? Would we then proceed bilaterally, regardless of the Community? I, myself, hope that we would do so. The Community is certainly a convenient peg, but if something went wrong, would we ourselves, bilaterally with Spain, adopt a transitional period on similar lines with the fullest exchange of the rights mentioned in the Statement?

Finally, with regard to what appears at the top of page 3 of the Statement, will the rights of establishment, trade unions, etc., work both ways, reciprocally? Of course, the purchase of land and property is already open to British citizens in Spain. Will there be total reciprocity between the two sides on that point?

Baroness Young

My Lords, in answer to the first question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, the fact is that Spain is going to join the Community and we do not anticipate any other answer than that. On the second point, yes, the rights are reciprocal. They are for Spaniards in Gibraltar and for Gibraltarians in Spain.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, bearing in mind the massive loyalty displayed by the people of Gibraltar over many decades in very trying circumstances, and in the light of the fact, as seems to be reported in various newspapers this morning that the Spaniards are highly delighted—there is no one on their side with any apprehensions—is the noble Baroness aware that on the Gibraltarian side leaders of the opposition parties are gravely apprehensive? They claim that to them this outcome was an almost total and complete surprise since they were hardly consulted during the talks. Can the noble Baroness confirm that they were consulted? Can she also confirm that if any question concerning sovereignty is raised at any time all the people of Gibraltar—those in commerce, industry, the trade unions and the political parties—will be represented by their various leaders?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, that the loyalty of the Gibraltarians has been very great and it is something which Britain has recognised and continues to recognise. As regards consultation, the Chief Minister, Sir Joshua Hassan, has been consulted, as the Statement made clear, at each step in these negotiations, and he will be fully brought into the future negotiations which will be held on other outstanding issues.

As regards Sir Joshua's consultation with the Opposition, that would be a matter for him in Gibraltar. With regard to any future discussions on sovereignty, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, in relation to consultation with Gibraltar, this would be a matter for both the Government of Gibraltar and their elected representatives to express a view upon and to express a view as to how further consultations might be held.

Lord George-Brown

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness to convey to Sir Geoffrey Howe, the Foreign Secretary, the regret of two of us sitting in this House at the moment—the noble Lord, Lord MacLehose, and myself—that it should be Sir Geoffrey who is credited with an agreement which we made in 1968 with the then Spanish Foreign Secretary but which we were not allowed to carry through by the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Rievaulx, and the then Labour Cabinet on the ground not that the agreement was wrong, but that one should not do such a thing with a fascist dictator? We were told we would have to wait until there was a social democratic Prime Minister in Spain. They now have one; a good one. I am, therefore, first, delighted and, secondly, I say to all my colleagues above me on the Gangway, "Do not go back on what at that time you thought was right but did not want to do with Franco"—which obviously I understand. "You thought it right then, let us stick with it now" Felipe González needs our help. This is one way we can give it to him. Thank heavens the Foreign Secretary never said in the case of Gibraltar that the wishes of the inhabitants had to be paramount. That is what has saved us from making the same mistake in Gibraltar as we have made in the Falklands.

Baroness Young

My Lords, I think that it would be better if I did not comment on the first part of the statement by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown. I am glad to hear that he is pleased with the present position and the agreement reached. I am sure that he and his colleagues agree that at this stage it is more constructive to look forward than to look back.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, as the noble Baroness categorically said that Spain would enter the Common Market, can she say whether a date for signing the Treaty of Accession has been fixed?

Baroness Young

My Lords, it has always been intended that Spain should accede to the Community on 1st January 1986.