§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there is to be a review of the mandatory awards and grants system.
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, mandatory award rates and conditions are reviewed annually. The first stage results of the review for 1985–86 were announced by Ministers two weeks ago.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I was asking for a major review to succeed that of the Anderson Report, which appeared 22 years ago? Does the Minister think that a major change on awards such as that announced on 12th November last should have been made before there had been a proper review and when no consultation had taken place with the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals, with the National Union of Students or with others involved in higher education? Is he aware that the Secretary of State has managed to alienate vice-chancellors, parents and students by his very highhanded action, as the letters in today's edition of The Times and Guardian and many other letters will have indicated?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am a little puzzled by the remarks of the noble Baroness because she said she wants a major review. Then she seemed to say that this was a major review and therefore should not have been carried out. It is not Government policy to consult in full before making financial decisions such as this. There is continuing correspondence and indeed consultation with all the bodies to which the noble Baroness referred, and this goes on the whole time.
§ Baroness LockwoodMy Lords, would the Minister agree that there have been major changes in the grants system but there has not been a major review which has promoted these changes? Would he not further agree that in view of the developments in higher education, particularly the emphasis that is being given to part-time higher education, it is really necessary for us to have a fundamental review of grants in order that aspects of part-time education are covered?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, student awards must be determined in the light of both the needs of students and the sums that taxpayers and ratepayers can reasonably be asked to contribute towards student 758 support. The two noble Baronesses have been referring to a review, but I fear that what they mean is a review only of student needs. This will not magically ease the resource constraints under which this Government are operating. Such a review would therefore be of limited value.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that the whole arrangement for mandatory grants for students is likely to have the effect of driving students into the hands of the high street banks in order to seek loans for their academic careers? Is this fair at a time of high unemployment when students have no certainty of being able to get a job when they leave higher education?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I think the banks themselves go touting very much for their business, and I do not think that the blame for this can be laid entirely with the Government.
§ Lord Alexander of PotterhillMy Lords, can the noble Earl give the House an assurance that after the changes which have been announced are made, it will still be true that the awards system in this country is more generous than that in any country in Europe and very much more generous than that in the United States of America?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, for making that very important point, which is absolutely true.
§ Baroness Masham of IltonMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether children whose parents refuse to pay their grants for higher education will have a right of appeal? Would my noble kinsman agree that there are some parents who feel that daughters should not have higher education? Would it not be wise to have a system like the Norwegian system where students are lent a grant by the Government and then pay it back when they are earning?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I do not think young people who are refused a grant by their parents have any right to appeal except to their parents. I suggest that they appeal to them very strongly, and I hope that in support they may produce their teachers, their career officers and anyone else in evidence. I am sorry to say that this problem occurs; I think that is a fact of life. None of us can choose which parents have us, and, as they say in Yorkshire,
There's nowt as queer as folk".In regard to student loans, I think the Government have decided that this is not a feasible way to proceed.
§ Lord KilmarnockMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, in relation to the question put to him by his noble kinswoman, the recovery rate on student grants in other countries is only something in the area of 25 per cent. and that the central government administrative costs are extremely high?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I am very grateful. As I have said, for various reasons the Government are not preparing to proceed on those lines.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, does the Minister not think, after his answer to his noble kinswoman, that perhaps it might be a very good idea if students were treated as adults from the age of 18 and were given a grant to cover their education? Their parents, if they were able to pay high taxes, would pay for it with high taxes. Would it not be very much better to make students totally independent?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, I think that when those students grow up and become taxpayers they would probably not prefer that line of country. I think that on the whole parents would prefer to pay less tax generally and to pay more towards their children's education.
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, would not the noble Earl agree that the only item which no government have ever managed to tax is knowledge in the brain and that therefore parents are very well advised to invest in this valuable commodity?
§ The Earl of SwintonYes, my Lords. The Government hope that the parents will meet their full responsibilities. There are ways of helping in that respect—for example, deeds of covenant—and we hope that parents will pay what they should pay towards their student offspring.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, may I ask a final question? Is a study of these new arrangements to be undertaken?
§ The Earl of SwintonMy Lords, there is a continual study of the data about the access that students have to higher education, and yes it will indeed be studied.