HL Deb 27 November 1984 vol 457 cc760-2

2.46 p.m.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what effect they expect the new qualification for entry to Community programmes will have on the number of married women participating in the schemes.

The Minister Without Portfolio (Lord Young of Graffham)

My Lords, the number who will be affected by the decision to give priority to those people who meet the programme's criteria for long-term unemployment and are also benefit recipients will vary according to changing personal and family circumstances. Married women may claim benefit in their own right, and we have provided that where benefit is claimed by a head of household and includes a benefit for an unemployed spouse, that spouse will also be regarded as a benefit recipient.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, and in particular for the reference to the spouse of an unemployed person. Is the Minister aware of the very widespread disquiet that has been caused among voluntary organisations and advisory bodies based on their experience of the benefit that many married women have received in work and in training opportunities through the Community programme and the fact that they are going to be debarred from such opportunites in the future? Is the Minister aware that the Equal Opportunities Commission has said that this rule might well be unlawful, indirect marital discrimination under the Sex Discrimination Act? Would it not be in the best interests of the country if Government departments and agencies were to observe such Acts of Parliament?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, to my personal knowlege the Manpower Services Commission has always accepted the rules and regulations and the very spirit of equal opportunity within the working of not only the Community programme but any programme. There is perhaps only one restriction that might possibly be said to discriminate against married women, and that is where a married woman elected to pay a reduced rate of national insurance contribution which did not entitle her to unemployment benefit. However, that would be a voluntary decision and one often taken because it was accepted that they would at that time be financially supported by their husbands while they themselves were out of work. However, I should like to assure the noble Baroness that my honourable friend the Minister of State for Employment has a meeting within the next 10 days with my noble friend the chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission, Lady Pratt, and I hope that such matters will then be resolved satisfactorily.

Baroness Faithfull

My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend the Minister the position with regard to widows who want to maintain a reasonably high standard for their children. Are they to be debarred, and are they not allowed to enter the Community programme? Secondly, despite the fact of what my noble friend the Minister has said, would he not agree that the present recommendations do discriminate against women?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, it is important to remember exactly what the Community programme is designed to do. It is to help the long-term unemployed—that is, those in our society who have been out of work for one year or more. Within that, of course, the Government have to decide how to allocate resources—which cover some 130,000 filled places—that will help some 200,000 people during the course of a year, within a group of some 1.2 million long-term unemployed. Within that group, at July 1984, 279,200 were women, which is 22.6 per cent. of the long-term unemployed. The latest figure we have is that 23.5 percent. of entrants over the past 12 months were women. From that I think it is safe to assume that women are getting their proper proportion within the Community programme.

The other test which the Government have had to adopt is to restrict the Community programme to those in receipt of benefit. It was considered by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment that the benefit system is the best available objective test of need.

Baroness Serota

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord can touch on the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, has raised. Would a woman in receipt of a widow's pension be regarded as drawing benefit and, therefore, be eligible for the Community programme?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I think I should repeat the rules, which say that provided you are a recipient of benefit and can be categorised as long-term unemployed—that is, you have been out of work for 12 months—you are eligible to enter the scheme.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, in view of the fact that the scheme appears to have worked very well and smoothly in the past with the 12 months' qualification—that is, 12 months' unemployment out of a period of 15 months—can the noble Lord tell us why the Government have made this particular change?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, in August, before the new rule was introduced, fewer than 15 per cent. of the entrants in the previous 12 months were not in receipt of benefit themselves, but a significant proportion of these might still be eligible for the scheme under the new rule, which says that a person is eligible if his or her spouse is receiving benefit. It is merely an earnest of the Government's intention to confine the programme to those most in need; that is, to those in receipt of benefit.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, in view of the small percentage—15 per cent.—do the Government think that this change is worth all the aggravation that has been caused?

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, I do not think that the 20,000 or so recipients of benefit who will now be entitled to enter the programme (which was previously denied them) will find this a small change.

Baroness Serota

My Lords, I am sorry to return to this point, but I think it is an important one. I am still not clear from the noble Lord's reply whether a widow's pension is regarded as a benefit for the purposes of entry to the Community programme scheme.

Lord Young of Graffham

My Lords, my suspicions are that it is not, but I shall be quite happy to check on this and I shall write to the noble Baroness.