HL Deb 22 November 1984 vol 457 cc739-51

7.15 p.m.

Lord Banks rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take to ensure that non-vehicular piers on the Firth of Clyde currently in use are not allowed to fall into disrepair and disuse with consequent loss to the tourist industry.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Question asks what steps the Government propose to take to ensure that non-vehicular piers on the Firth of Clyde currently in use are not allowed to fall into disrepair and disuse with consequent loss to the tourist industry. I await with interest to hear in due course the reply which will be made by the noble Lord the Minister, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, for interesting himself in this Question.

As railways spread throughout Britain, steamer services developed on the Firth. Operating from railheads, they were in fact the railways of the Firth, maintaining communication between the towns and villages around its shores. They provided also in the summer cruises for visitors amid the very attractive scenery of the Firth. If one were to return to the year 1900, one would find that there were then about 60 piers in use with about 40 steamers serving them at the height of the season.

The development of road traffic followed by the increasing number of cars in use, and eventually the considerable improvement to roads, altered that pattern. Since 1900 there has been a gradual decline in both the number of piers in use and the number of steamers involved in serving them. There has been a concentration, too, in the ownership of the vessels. There has also been the replacement of the passenger steamer by the dual-purpose car ferry. Nowadays, the services are concentrated on a few very busy and important car ferry services operated by Caledonian MacBrayne and Western Ferries—such as the Gourock-Dunoon ferry, the Wemyss Bay-Rothesay ferry, and the Ardrossan-Brodick ferry. Cruising has been abandoned by Caledonian MacBrayne.

The last of the familiar Clyde passenger steamers was the "Waverley". This was a paddle steamer built in 1947 for the London North-Eastern Railway Company. By 1974, the Scottish Transport Group, who by that time were her owners, had no more use for her. They sold her to the Paddle Steamer Preservation Society for £1. That was a very generous gesture but I imagine that there was a certain amount of cynicism generally as to the extent of the use to which the preservation society would be able to put her.

The society resolved to sail the "Waverley" again on the Clyde. Here I must declare an interest, although not a financial one. I am a member of the Paddle Steamer Preservation Society and of the Clyde River Steamer Club. In September this year, the "Waverley" completed her tenth season operated by a non-profit making company under the auspices of the society. That is a remarkable achievement. During the six months of her season, the "Waverley" sails around Britain, offering cruises around the West Highlands, on the East Coast of Scotland, in the Bristol Channel, in the Solent, and on the Thames. But early and late in every season, and during the height of the season, in July and August, the "Waverley" is based in her home waters on the Clyde, where she offers a variety of cruises and where she provides also a means of communication between one point and another.

The "Waverley" is a considerable tourist attraction for Glasgow and the Clyde coast. In July and August of this year, the "Waverley" carried no fewer than 109,000 passengers on the Clyde; that is quite apart from the passengers she carried in other parts of the country. That is 3,000 more than she carried in the same time and in the same area in 1983; 109,000 passengers carried in the Clyde in July and August, 42,000 of whom were taken—and this is quite significant—to ports on the North or Highland side of the Clyde to Argyllshire ports, Dunoon, Tighnabruaich, Tarbert and Campbeltown.

The "Waverley" also provides business for the places that are at the end of her cruises; at destination points where people have time ashore. Indeed, they have time ashore at the places at which she calls on the way. That means a considerable amount of business for local shopkeepers, cafe proprietors, and so on. The "Waverley" calls at piers like Dunoon, Rothesay and Brodick which are also used for car ferry services. Because they are also used for car ferry services, we can be fairly certain that they will be maintained and that they will be available for the "Waverley" in future years. The "Waverley" also calls at non-vehicular piers; that is, piers which are not used by the car ferries. The "Waverley" management is concerned about the future of these piers, some of which are in a bad state of repair.

The piers about which there is particular concern are Millport, Helensburgh, Tighnabruaich and Largs. On Millport pier, on the Great Cumbrae, repairs are needed which would cost about £90,000. It seems that repairs have been allowed to accumulate. I believe that Strathclyde Regional Council has refused to foot the bill, arguing that as it is used for leisure and recreation it is the responsibility of the district council for whom, of course, £90,000 is a very large sum. Millport pier is also used in summer by a small passenger vessel, the "Keppel", which provides a direct link for passengers with Largs and Rothesay. It is operated by Caledonian MacBrayne, and there is a question mark over the future of that service. Millport does not want to lose either the "Waverley" service or the "Keppel" service and has formed an action committee to fight for the continuation of Millport pier.

As regards Largs, there is the fear that if Millport were closed then Largs might be closed as well. It is owned by Caledonian MacBrayne. It is not necessary for the car ferry service to the Cumbrae. Passengers using this service travel by bus to Millport once they are landed on the Cumbrae because they are landed at some distance from the town. I understand that the carryings for the "Keppel" last summer direct from Millport pier to Largs and to Rothesay were well up and that the car ferry service could not have coped with all the foot passenger traffic that wanted to travel. It is important to emphasise that Largs is a very important picking-up point as far as the "Waverley" is concerned, being a prosperous holiday resort, a residential area and having a railway terminus. The same comment applies to Helensburgh further up the Clyde, on the other side.

Helensburgh pier is falling into a very bad state of repair and there seems to be very little sign that even basic maintenance is being carried out. Mr. David Duncanson, the general manager of Waverley Excursions Limited, is reported as saying in the Glasgow Evening Times of 19th October: Both myself and the captain of the ship, Captain David Neil, consider that it"— that is, Helensburgh pier— is getting to a dangerous condition".

Tighnabruaich pier is also in need of repair; and a spokesman for Strathclyde Regional Council has admitted that both Helensburgh and Tighnabruaich pier are urgently in need of repair. Tighnabruaich is situated in the Kyles of Bute in a very beautiful part of the country and is an ideal destination for a cruise. Also of course the large numbers of cruise passengers who are taken there by the "Waverley" in the summer bring a lot of business locally. There have also been rumours—I do not know whether there is anything in them—that somebody might be willing at some point in the comparatively near future to introduce in summer a feeder service between Tighnabruaich and Rothesay. If Tighnabruaich pier were to close then all those advantages would go.

In the same report to which I have referred Mr. Duncanson said that if Millport, Helensburgh, Largs and Tighnabruaich piers were closed it would kill off cruising on the Clyde. He said: We could not stand losing these three important picking up points as well as Millport. If that should happen, Glasgow and the Clyde coast would lose a remarkable and valuable tourist attraction. A means of ordinary communication between places on the Clyde in the summer season would go and local businesses would stand to lose a considerable amount, not only in those four places but in other places such as Dunoon, Rothesay, Campbeltown, Tarbert and Ayr. If the Clyde cruising ended then it is possible that the whole "Waverley" enterprise might end. I am sure the Government do not want that to happen.

I hope that the Government will give an assurance that they will not stand idly by and allow that to happen. Perhaps the recent experience regarding Tobermory pier, further north outside the Firth of Clyde and the Island of Mull, offers hope. Caledonian MacBrayne (who own that pier) closed it to vessels of over 70 feet in length because of the structural condition of the pier. That meant that it was not able to be used by the Caledonian MacBrayne ferry from Oban. There was much local criticism of that, and the Secretary of State eventually made an offer of financial assistance. That was originally just to allow smaller vessels to call; but later full restoration of services was provided for so that larger Caledonian MacBrayne ferries will be able to call there in the future and also the "Waverley" during her short stay each year in that part of the country.

In conclusion, I emphasise that I am not asking for help for something which is fading away. On the contrary—and I repeat this—the "Waverley" carried 109,000 passengers on the Clyde in July and August this year. The "Waverley" enterprise is a wonderful success story, based on voluntary support and enthusiasm and bringing many advantages to the community. I hope that it will be made clear that the Government are determined to maintain the conditions under which that voluntary, non-profit making enterprise can continue its success.

7.28 p.m.

Lord Ferrier

My Lords, I apologise for not having put down my name to speak; but, frankly, I had not expected to be in London today otherwise I would have done so. Owing to my advancing years, my memories go back to the days when the Clyde was covered by a network of steamer routes. There were the Caledonian Railway steamers with their yellow funnels, MacBrayne's Queens of the Coast, the "Iona" and the "Columba", the North British Railway, the Glasgow and South-Western Railway and their steamers trading to and fro between the piers, most of which the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has mentioned. Your Lordships will forgive me if I remind the House that it was possible to buy a ticket at the Broomielaw to Fort William and sail by, say, the "Columba" to Ardrishhaig on the funny little steamer, the "Linnet", which went up the Crinan Canal, to the "Chevalier" which ran from Crinan round to Oban. At Oban we changed to the "Mountaineer", or the like, and up to Fort William. That was a great development.

I am so glad that the noble Lord mentioned the steamer that is maintaining the reputation of comfort and enjoyment on one of the most beautiful coasts in the world. I hope that his words and mine will help to encourage the Government to do everything that they can to help with the maintenance of those piers.

At one time I was a bit of a yachtsman. The noble Lord did not mention yachtsmen at all. I should like to ask the Minister whether in considering the problem he has been in touch with the Clyde Cruising Club, which publishes a splendid book of sailing instructions for the whole coast, right the way up to Ullapool.

One is tempted at my age to reminisce. I think your Lordships will be interested to know that I remember a steamer of MacBrayne's. She was called the "Glen Coe", and sailed from Mallaig to Broadford. I was an orphan boy, and I remember one winter during the first war when I was going up to stay with an uncle in Skye. It was a horrible, black day. I went on board, and I asked one of the sailors what sort of crossing we were going to have. He said, "I wouldn't be knowing, but I can tell you this—that Captain MacDonald has on his carpet slippers. It's when he has on his sea boots that you have to look out". That is an illustration of when the steamer had a single cylinder beam engine. If she stuck at a dead end, the stokers had to come up, and bar the paddles over so that she was able to go backwards or forwards.

To return to the question of yachtsmen, yachting is one of the greatest leisure opportunities in the world; and there is nowhere in the world to compare with the west coast of Scotland, in my view. I know nearly all the ports. Access for yachts depends a great deal on the availability of existing piers and maintaining them in proper order. In that respect I feel that we can support 100 per cent. what the noble Lord said. I am sure that the money put in is an investment. It is good stuff. Experience with the steamer that goes from Ardrossan to Brodick, the "Waverly" indicates the opportunities there are there for relaxation, travel and good health.

My mind again goes back to the time when I was a little boy and we travelled on these steamers. Does anyone remember the German bands? There was always a band on board, with Germans with their peaked caps, their trombones, clarinets and trumpets. "Going doon the water" as they called it, was a tremendous exercise for the people of Glasgow. At that time Glasgow was terribly foggy and smoky.

I hope that your Lordships will give a good hearing to the case of the noble Lord, Lord Banks. I should like to add my words to what he has said. I again ask the Minister who is to reply whether he has been in touch with the Clyde Cruising Club to see to what extent assistance can be given to yachtsmen so that people can drive to, say, Tarbert-Lock Fyne-and join a yacht there. I think that the Tarbert pier is all right, but it may not go on being like that unless we pay attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has said.

7.43 p.m.

Baroness Elliot of Harwood

My Lords, I should very much like to support the noble Lord, Lord Banks, in this matter. Like everyone else in your Lordships' House at this moment, I have done an enormous amount of sailing on the Clyde, off the west Highlands and on the west coast. It is one of the most enjoyable things that one can do. It is one of the best entertainments for those who go there and love sailing. It would be nothing short of a tragedy if this facility were to disappear just when we are trying to encourage more and more people to go to Scotland and to the west. As we all know, there is a great depression in shipbuilding and all those things. Proposals such as we are discussing can help to counter that kind of situation.

I hope very much that what the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has said—every word of which I agree with—will receive the agreement of the noble Lord, Lord Gray. This is something that we should invest in. It is not expenditure, it is investment; and it will bring a return.

7.36 p.m.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I think that the House will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Banks, for having raised the subject and put down the Question today. It is important to realise how great an expert he is on the subject of Clyde steamers. I was also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, and interested in his remarks on the nostalgia of the Clyde, which is a very important part of the west of Scotland culture. I hope to make a brief reference to what the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot, said in her few remarks.

It is important to realise the vital part played by the Clyde and the Clyde steamers in the history of Glasgow, the west of Scotland and really the industrial heartlands of Britain at various periods. I say that without wishing to be too chauvinistic. As the noble Lord, Lord Banks, pointed out, there were scores of piers serviced by dozens of ships. Many, but not all, of those ships were paddle steamers. For some reason or other the paddle steamers were always the most fascinating, especially if one went down to see the engines. When I went down to see the engines it was actually to see the engines, but that was what the Clyde engineers used to tell their wives when they were going down to the bar! Those wonderful, big engines were beautifully kept and beautiful to look at.

I perhaps do not go back quite as far as many other noble Lords, but I remember being told of Tighnabruaich, for instance, where there would be 10 boats before 10 o'clock in the morning at the height of the season. I believe that there was a certain amount of competition for the Royal Mail. That is what I was always told. If a company could manage to establish a good record of reliability and speed, it would get the mail for the next year or six months.

It is also interesting to realise that much of the system was based on very cheap labour and extremely cheap fuel in the west of Scotland. Sometimes the conditions for the crews were not that great. I am not saying that to introduce a sour note, but merely to illustrate the fact that what was possible in those days may not be possible now. The steamers were also the only means of transport to many parts of the Clyde. Our roads are now much better, but the old roads were little more than drovers' tracks. Even in my day, for instance, to go to Loch Goil other than by steamer was very difficult.

Perhaps it is being over-romantic, but I often think that the Clyde coast and Venice have something in common. Venice has the boats because of the lagoon, and that makes it different from any other city in the world. The Clyde, because of its ships, was able to sustain little villages and small towns which could not have been sustained otherwise.

Now, of course, we have the growth of road transport. In the various responsibilities that I have had in political life the subject has continually come up: the desire of people to use motorcars and the problems that this means for other forms of transport. The diesel and petrol engine, together with much better roads, has brought about a gradual transfer of passengers. As a result, the Clyde fleet has become smaller and smaller. There was less of a margin to be achieved in visiting the smaller populated areas, and therefore the service began to reduce. I remember well sailing down the Clyde from Glasgow, from Broomielaw, and we actually stopped at Govan and, I think, also at Renfrew. This would be inconceivable now. It is a seven-minute run by bus. However, that is how important the steamer was. It has become one of the casualties of the technological age.

There were also the marvellous evening sails from Largs, Millport and Rothesay, which, for some reason, have disappeared. It is a wonderful river. I still love to sail down it. It is one of my favourite trips, to take foreigners from south of the Border across to Dunoon—although, again, by car. That is the problem: I go by car. I sail across and take them up round Dunoon, over the Rest and be Thankful, and sometimes even into Callander. However, the ship now constitutes only part of the journey instead of the whole journey. This is perhaps because people are not willing to spend the entire day travelling.

Although still a wonderful river it is a different river from the one that I knew as a kid, mainly in Millport and Largs, when, though not perhaps with the expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Banks, I could identify ships on seeing whether the front portholes were square or round. I am afraid I did not maintain that interest, but at one time it was a matter of great importance to me. My daughter, however, is still very much involved in the Clyde. To her, it is a different river. She sees the Clyde from a yacht, a sailing boat or from the shore. Nevertheless, she uses the Clyde and she loves it.

I was pleased to hear the figures from the noble Lord, Lord Banks, about the "Waverley", which berths in my old constituency. It is still a magnificent sight. To stand at the head of the Kyles of Bute on a clear day and to see the "Waverley" steaming up is really a most exciting sight. I have every hope that anything I say will be taken as encouragement rather than anything else. The position, I understand, is that Strathclyde inherited about 50 piers, ranging from very small jetties to Rothesay Harbour, on the reorganisation of local government. There was then the Stodart report. I am sorry that the noble Lord has left because his name is beginning to flit through Scottish legislation in this generation almost in the way that the name Goschen did in another generation. That was a splendid and full report.

The noble Lord suggested that leisure and recreational piers should be the responsibility of the district councils. I recognise that there are always difficulties in trying to divide and compartmentalise these things. It was, however, a reasonable argument to say that if it was a leisure or recreational pier or jetty, the district councils should be responsible for it, whereas if it was the continuation of the highway it should be a regional council responsibility.

I understand that Millport is now losing traffic to the Cumbrae slip. I remember when there were hardly any cars, if any cars at all, in Millport. It was therefore great as a youngster to be able to ride a bicycle without any great fear. To most of those who are only going to Millport for the odd day—there are perhaps not as many of them as we would like to see—and who wish to take their cars, the slipway is a reasonable alternative. It is roughly a mile from the town. It does diminish Millport, because the pierhead was the centre. It was the place where things happened, where the shops were located and where you got the latest news.

I have been making inquiries. I understand that the figure for repair, although I stand to be corrected, is around £70,000. The noble Lord, Lord Banks, suggested a figure of about £90,000. Whatever it is, I accept that to a district council it is a very high figure. The difficulty is that, in present circumstances, it also represents quite a big figure for Strathclyde. I can assure your Lordships that in the area that I represented, while there would be great sympathy and hopes that the money could be found somewhere, the urgency for money in the inner city areas is at least as strong. The sum of £70,000 or £90,000 would mean a great deal at a time of cuts in so many services.

It is a sad fact of life that although it may be impossible, or difficult, for a district council to raise the money, because it would represent one of its major items of capital expenditure, the allocation of £90,000 by a regional council, with all the pressures upon it, would also represent a great problem.

I do not feel, however, that there is any lack of goodwill on the part of the people of Strathclyde Regional Council towards the desires of the noble Lord, Lord Banks, other noble Lords and the noble Baroness. Lady Elliot, who have spoken in the debate. I understand that a decision is likely to be made very soon—possibly next week, or the week after that—as to what is to happen to Millport. I have been trying, at a fairly late date, to gather some information. I hope however, that the Government will look at the matter with great sympathy.

The noble Baroness, Lady Elliot, mentioned unemployment in the engineering industry. I support fully what she said. I would emphasise that there is unemployment not just in the engineering undustry, but particularly in the civil engineering industry. I believe that the Federation of Civil Engineering Contractors have joined, on more than one occasion, with local authorities, construction companies and consultants in urging the Government to try to provide them with some work. There is a tremendous shortage of work and a great deal of unemployment in every branch of civil engineering and marine engineering.

What is required for repairs to piers such as Millport and many of the others that we have been discussing is labour, steel, cement, stone and perhaps a little heavy timber. Of all these principal items, there is only one that involves imports—the last, the heavy timber.

This request to the Government for help seems reasonable, in view of the state of the industry. As I say, this is not a party point, because the people who have approached us are certainly hardly likely to be canvassing for my party at the next election. They are really desperate. They do not suck in imports, as many other capital works may do. The only import that is likely to be necessary is some of the heavy, water-resistant timbers.

I hope that the Minister will look at the matter from that point of view. Instead of asking Strathclyde to provide something like £70,000 or £90,000, or asking the district council if they will do it or if private enterprise will do it, the Govenment should find a way to use the available resources. It would be a very marginal addition to what is already being paid out in many other forms of help to these people and to these industries to give a little more to allow repairs like this to go ahead and preserve for many years to come an asset which I think has proved itself very much over the past 50, 60 or 100 years to the people of the West of Scotland.

7.51 p.m.

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, I should like to begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Banks, for initiating this short debate this evening. I almost feel an intruder when I listen to the wealth of knowledge of the Clyde which has come from the noble Lord himself and from the three other noble Lords and the noble Baroness who have taken part. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has a particular—indeed, expert—interest in the general history of sea transport services. Many years ago he published a book on the history and development of the famous Clyde steamers.

I can recall myself, as a boy, sailing down the Clyde on the lovely old "Duchess of Montrose", which will be well known to all those who have taken part in this debate; and therefore I share in the affection which those who have participated this evening have for the Clyde and for the Clyde piers. I am sure that many of your Lordships have very fond memories of those majestic vessels—majestic in both name and in bearing—which plied the Firth of Clyde for the greater part of a century. Reference has been made to them this evening.

However, we have to face up to the fact that resources are not unlimited and that priorities have to be drawn. There are many piers on the Clyde which are not required for the provision of any essential transport services. We have to ask—or rather, those directly responsible have to ask—how much it can be justified to spend on them to maintain them for what is a relatively limited tourist use. I shall return to this point. I shall also deal with the points that have been raised about Millport Pier, because I readily appreciate that it is probably Millport Pier which is of the greatest concern to the noble Lord, Lord Banks, and to others at this point in time. I shall also deal with some of the points which were raised in regard to financing of such repairs. Let me say straight away that these are the responsibilities principally of the Strathclyde Regional Council. I shall deal with that in a little more detail in a moment.

Perhaps first of all I can answer the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, who asked me if we had consulted with the Clyde Cruising Club. We have not consulted specifically with the cruising club on this issue for the simple reason that the Government's responsibility is to provide essential transport infrastructure, and noble Lords will appreciate that yachting is a leisure pursuit. That is why we have not particularly consulted the Clyde Cruising Club on this occasion.

I should like to say a word about Millport Pier. May I say from the outset that I fully acknowledge the strength of local feeling provoked by the prospect of closure of Millport Pier. As the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has already said, the Millport Pier Action Group have been particularly zealous in their defence of the pier, including the compilation of an impressive amount of background material to highlight the economic and social basis of life on a small island like Great Cumbrae. Indeed, the Secretary of State has been inundated with postcards about the fate of the pier. Officials in my department have been in touch with the action group, and earlier this year attended a meeting in Millport to hear the group's views on a wide range of transport issues. In that and other contexts we have therefore made clear the Secretary of State's

position in this affair; but your Lordships will wish me to set on record now the formal statutory background.

The Secretary of State can make available Exchequer assistance for capital works at piers and harbours under various statutory powers. However, his powers are defined in terms of financial aid to assist the provision or improvement of piers and harbours. That is the basic criterion of eligibility. Only capital works which represent a visible degree of betterment to sea transport facilities are eligible for consideration for Exchequer assistance. The obverse of this is that Exchequer assistance is not available for works which have become necessary because routine maintenance has not been carried out. Over the years my department have reminded all local authorities which are harbour authorities, and all statutory harbour authorities and trusts, that it is their duty to make adequate provision for proper maintenance of the piers and harbours in their charge. It has been stressed to them that the Secretary of State cannot use funds provided for improvement of facilities to assist works made necessary by neglect of maintenance. Your Lordships may consider that this sounds a rather harsh distinction but I think you will agree that the Secretary of State can operate only within the bounds of the statutory' powers available to him.

I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, was very realistic in his remarks when he pointed out that he realised, from his experience in transport matters, that there was only a limited amount of money—there was not a great honeypot into which we could dip—and that priorities had to be made. However, in regard to the specific case of Millport Pier, I understand that Strathclyde Regional Council, as owners of the pier, have indicated, as the noble Lord mentioned, that they are not disposed to undertake at present certain maintenance and repair works, estimated to cost around £100.000, necessary to render the structure safe, and that the absence of such work may require them to close the pier in the near future. I understand also that the regional council are of the view that Millport Pier serves no necessary transport function and is therefore to be regarded as predominantly a facility for leisure and recreation purposes.

The regional council have stated that it is for Cunninghame District Council, as the tier of local government responsible for leisure and recreation matters, to find the necessary expenditure for the pier works if it is intended to keep the facility in use for cruising vessels such as the "Waverley". Your Lordships will understand my reluctance to comment on that difference of view between the local authorities. I do not think that it would be appropriate or indeed helpful for me to become embroiled in that dispute. I would only add for avoidance of doubt that the Secretary of State does not have the powers or resources to compel local authorities to undertake maintenance and repair work. I would have hoped that sensible discussion between the two councils would have been possible.

I recognise that none of this offers much comfort for those who are concerned—if I may put it this way—to preserve Millport pier for its own sake. I understand their views. The pier has played an important role in the history of the community and has provided it with a focal point. In its day, it also provided an important contribution to the local economy. There was a time around the turn of the century when three separate steamers, I understand in competition with each other, were wholly devoted to travelling between Millport pier and the mainland.

But times change, and the west coast of Scotland is littered with piers that now perform no transport function. In the Clyde itself I need only mention such places as Ardentinny, Strachur, Straoan——

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I am afraid that the Minister has been given the wrong information. Ardentinny has never had a pier. People were taken by a small boat from the mainland to Ardentinny. The nearest pier was at Blairmore.

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, my position as an outsider is wholly confirmed; I stand corrected. I would never dream of arguing on such a point with one as knowledgeable about the Clyde as the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove. Perhaps I had better not mention any more places in case I raise some more which do not have piers. However, I can assure your Lordships that there are many more.

It cannot be right that large sums of money should be spent from transport budgets to keep these piers in operation, when they have no continuing transport use. Where however they are deemed to be important for tourism or other purposes, the powers are available for the district councils to take them over. Once again, of course, resources for expenditure on leisure and recreation are scarce and hard decisions have to be taken on priorities.

A particular problem in the Millport case is that no one is anxious to take over an immediate liability to incur expenditure. I do not know whether Cunning-name District Council might be amenable to taking over responsibility after repairs had been done, or possibly to some cost-sharing. These are decisions for the local authority but might provide a way forward in cases where there is a generally agreed desire to retain the facility for tourist purposes. I would not wish your Lordships' House for one moment to think that the Government are not interested or have not been playing their part fully so far as ferry services are concerned.

I would like to turn briefly to the wider question of Government support for the ferry services operated by Caledonian MacBrayne on the West Coast. I think it is important to get on record once again the extent and scale of this Government's support for the important ferry services in this area. Since 1979 subsidy for the approved ferry services operated by CalMac has risen from £3.7 million to £7 million in 1984. This represents an increase of 90 per cent. during that four year period; the increase is far above the rate of inflation for that period and we have therefore increased revenue support in real terms for the services.

We find ourselves at the moment in a period of major investment both in ships and in associated ferry terminal improvements, including a number of pier projects on the Firth of Clyde. This year we have grant-aided capital work by CalMac on consolidation of their roll-on/roll-off terminal at Gourock pier at a total cost of some £350,000. Approval in principle has also been given to urgent remedial work at Rothesay pier at an estimated cost of £50,000. CalMac have submitted a five-year programme of capital improvements at a number of piers involving work at Wemyss Bay pier, further improvements at Brodick pier on Arran, together with further phases of work at Gourock. This proposed programme is currently being assessed. When completed it will represent a major overhaul of the Clyde piers, and will ensure the maintenance of the existing transport links which are essential to the existence of the Clyde tourist industry. Strathclyde Regional Council will in the future be looking to undertake further improvements at Rothesay. I think that this illustrates the scale of the commitment which the Secretary of State is being asked to give in supporting not only pier improvements on the Clyde, but throughout Scotland's ferry network.

More generally, your Lordships may wish to know that total financial provisions made available to harbour authorities over the past four years for capital improvements has averaged around £750,000 per annum; we have made provision moreover for a substantial increase over the next three years to take account of the very important conversion to roll-on /roll-off facilities which will be undertaken on what is known as the Uig triangle service between Skye and the Western Isles—a little removed from the Clyde, I admit, but I thought that your Lordships would be interested to know that. I think that your Lordships will agree on the basis of this information that all concerned, harbour authorities and the Government, are well aware of the need to devise and implement a rolling programme of improvements to the sea transport facilities.

I would like to think that sufficient money was available to do all that the noble Lord, Lord Banks, would like to see done to those piers, but I am afraid that priorities have got to be made. Nevertheless, let me thank the noble Lord again for giving us this excellent opportunity to discuss a subject which is so dear to the hearts of many of us.

Lord Ferrier

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I have your Lordships' permission to urge him to pursue my suggestion about the Clyde Sailing Club? Yachting may be a leisure pursuit, but it is an absolute money spinner in terms of the cost of boats and the cost of sailing equipment and the engines which now drive the motor cruisers which have to be maintained up and down the coast. In terms of piers, will the noble Lord apply himself to the problem that recently arose as regards Tobermory, where it was found that he had to finance the improvement of the pier?

Lord Gray of Contin

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that intervention. I must say to him that I would not wish to be drawn into argument or discussion about the difference between the situation and circumstances at Millport compared to Tobermory, because that is going rather wide of the subject tonight.

Perhaps I may return to the question of the Clyde Sailing Club. While I fully appreciate the excellent reputation which it enjoys and the very great pleasure which it gives both to its members and to its visitors, yachting is, of course, a leisure recreation, and therefore it is not part of what we are talking about this evening. As I explained to my noble friend, that was why we did not have direct contact with the club.