§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their attitude to the proposal of the Warsaw Treaty powers for an agreement with member states of NATO on the mutual non-use of military force and the maintenance of peace.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, members of NATO and the Warsaw Pact are already committed in the United Nations Charter and the Helsinki Final Act not to use force except in self-defence. In the Bonn Declaration we and our allies again pledged never to use any of our weapons except in response to attack. It would underline the commitment to non-use of force if all states at CDE Stockholm were to agree concrete confidence and security building measures on the lines proposed by NATO.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that, in spite of this, there has been a serious deterioration in international relations, and that some action is called for in order to endeavour to move the situation in the direction of peace? For example, will the noble Baroness say whether it would not be desirable at this point to approach the Soviet Union on the question of the Gulf war before the situation deteriorates further?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, a number of measures are being taken, and at the CDE conference in Stockholm we have a new approach to security issues. We seek to build a climate of confidence in which force limitations and reductions would be easier to achieve. We are doing this by trying to promote increased transparency of military activities, thus making it more difficult to mount a surprise attack. As far as the Soviet Union are concerned, the best thing they could do would be to return to the negotiating table.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the proposal of the Warsaw Pact powers mentioned in the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, includes an undertaking to cease using military force in Afghanistan?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think that my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter has raised a very important point. Those who seek to see that these commitments are re-affirmed should, of course, be the first to abide by them—and the situation in Afghanistan illustrates what is currently happening.
§ Lord BrockwayMy Lords, in view of the fact that the Government have said, in response to the Soviet idea of no first use of nuclear weapons, that they are prepared to say there will be no first use of any weapons, cannot an agreement covering both those elements be reached?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, we have made it clear repeatedly that no NATO weapons, nuclear or conventional, will ever be used except in response to attack.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Question as it stands could be looked upon in the minds of some as a libel of the NATO powers in its suggestion that the proposal as to the non-use of military force and the maintenance of peace comes only from the Warsaw Treaty countries? Is it not the decision of this country and all NATO members not to use force and to maintain peace, and not the suggestion or idea of only one side?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I should like to confirm to my noble friend that NATO is a defensive alliance.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, while acknowledging the responsibility of our Government for the total defence of this island and for working sensibly in collaboration with all our NATO allies, but nevertheless bearing in mind some of the intransigencies of the United States of America in South America, which equates with the misbehaviour of the Russians in Afghanistan, ought not our Government, with their wide experience, to keep a cool head at all times and not get a built-in anti-Russian attitude, because their endeavours could perhaps bring world peace and stave off the ultimate holocaust?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, as I indicated in my answer to the first supplementary question put by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, we are actively pursuing measures at the Stockholm Conference, and at the MBFR meetings we shall again be actively seeking to promote constructive measures on disarmament.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, would it not be a great contribution to world peace if the Russians were to abandon this insistence on always having superiority over everybody else combined?
§ Baroness YoungYes, my Lords; this would be helpful.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, perhaps the Americans could learn to do the same. Will the noble Baroness not address herself this morning to the most immediate threat to peace, which has arisen since this Question was put down—that is, the threat of escalation of the Gulf war into an international conflict? Will she not say, as I suggested in my earlier supplementary question, whether it would not be a very good idea to approach the Soviet Union on this question before the situation gets completely out of control?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I think that a supplementary question on the Gulf war is wide of the 1603 Question that is down on the Order Paper, but as a Government we do take the situation in the Middle East very seriously.