LORDS AMENDMENT

HL Deb 10 May 1984 vol 451 cc1034-7

32Page 3, line 19, leave out from ("the") to ("above") in line 20 and insert ("amendments made by subsections (2) and (2A)")

The Commons disagreed to the above amendment for the following reason:

Because the decision taken by the Commons on the amendment No. 13 made by the Lords in page 3, line 12, makes it unnecessary.

I beg to move that this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 5 and doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and 8 proposed in lieu thereof.

I shall also be moving that this House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 9 and doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 10 proposed in lieu thereof; and that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 12, 13 and 14 to Lords Amendment No. 11. In discussing these amendments it may be convenient, as I have already said, also to speak to Amendment No. 32.

The Bill provides that sheltered housing for the disabled and accommodation which has been purpose built for the disabled shall not be available for purchase. I believe that this is generally agreed. I believe that it is also accepted that disabled tenants should not be prevented from buying as a result of minor adaptations to their homes. Both the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, and the noble Viscount, Lord Ingleby, made that point at Second Reading.

The purpose of the noble Viscount's amendment was to ensure that local authorities can retain for letting purposes those houses which have been substantially adapted at a cost of perhaps several thousands of pounds. The Government's position at the outset was that all adapted dwellings should be brought within the right to buy. I am bound to say that I still believe that this would have been the preferable course. Nevertheless, I have to accept that despite some notable support for the Government's position from my noble friend Lady Masham and the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, your Lordships' general view was that substantially adapted dwellings should be excluded from the right to buy. The Government have concluded after careful consideration that that change in the Bill's provisions should be accepted. The original list of the adaptations giving rise to exemption which was given by the noble Viscount, Lord Ingleby, is contained in Amendment No. 5.

Essentially, for reasons of clarity and simplicity we felt that some redrafting of this list was necessary and the revised list which was inserted in another place appears as Amendment No. 7. No substantial change in the scope of the exemption is involved. I hope your Lordships will agree that the Government have gone a long way to meet the concern expressed on this matter and that the position we have now reached is a reasonable recognition of the views expressed.

I can deal very briefly with the other amendments in this group. They concern the definition of sheltered housing in the Bill. Upon reflection, we feel that it should be made clearer whether or not the social service or special facilities which have to be provided if a scheme is to qualify as a sheltered scheme, must be provided solely or mainly for the particular scheme in question or can be partly for that purpose and partly for another.

In the case of sheltered housing for the elderly, we consider it right that the facilities provided should be wholly or mainly for the benefit of the particular scheme in question. In other words, the fact that housing for the elderly was, say, within easy reach of a general community centre would not be enough to exclude it from the right to buy. In the case of sheltered housing for the physically and mentally handicapped, however, we accept that facilities which serve others in the community—such as a day centre for the disabled—could also support a nearby sheltered housing scheme, and this is the effect of Amendments Nos. 9 to 14. 1 beg to move.

Moved, That the House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 5, to which the Commons have disagreed, and doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 6 to 8 proposed in lieu thereof.—(Lord Bellwin.)

Lord Molson

My Lords, I have received a letter from the noble Viscount, Lord Ingleby, saying that owing to a long-standing engagement in Yorkshire he is not able to be here today. He asked me, however, to express his gratitude to the Government for the way in which they have responded almost 100 per cent. to the amendment he moved at Committee stage. I should like to express my gratitude also.

My noble friend Lord Bellwin has carried out in both the spirit and the letter the undertaking he gave to examine this matter again. I hope he will not feel that I am diminishing slightly the cordiality of my thanks if I remind him that it was necessary to inflict a defeat upon the Government before we were able to secure this very welcome concession. I am, however, obliged to draw attention to that painful episode—the first of several—in my recent political life—in order to do the second thing which Lord Ingleby has asked me to do. That is, to express our grateful thanks to noble Lords on all Benches—including some right reverend Prelates and a number of Cross-Benchers—who supported us in that amendment. This is a case where one can say that your Lordships' House has exercised wisely its powers of revision and the case of very much disadvantaged people, which had not been noticed by the elected House, has been taken into account by your Lordships.

I will only add by way of explanation that we cannot expect any expression of thanks from those who will benefit from the amendment. They cannot be identified at the present time. It is those who will at some time in the future be wanting dwellings specially adapted for the disabled who will benefit from the fact that your Lordships had insisted that houses especially suitable for the disabled should not be merged with the general pool of housing in this country.

Baroness Birk

My Lords, as I had my name to that amendment, perhaps I might add a few words to those of the noble Lord, Lord Molson, and say how delighted we are on these Benches that this amendment was largely accepted, with some minor alterations, by another place.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, perhaps I may draw the attention of the House to the views of the Association of District Councils, which is concerned that sub-paragraph (iii) of the amendment passed by this House has more or less been removed from the amendment as it has emerged from another place. Sub-paragraph (iii) dealt with the removal or relocation of internal walls in conjunction with the relocation of a bathroom, fixed bath or shower or water closet. The effect of that removal seems to be that many dwellings with internal but nevertheless substantial adaptations for the disabled would still risk being lost to local authorities for future use by disabled people. This seems to be a pity. I do not know whether anything can still be done to correct that situation; if so, it would be most helpful.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, perhaps I may reinforce what my noble friend the Minister said when he expressed his slight disappointment that the disabled section has come through as it has. I want to reinforce also what I said previously; that I considered this to be discrimination against one section of disabled people, and that housing which is adapted for the disabled is not lost to any disabled people provided it is there. I want to put that view on record. It would be wrong to let this pass, because many disabled people feel the same way as I do on this point.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I beg to move that the House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 9 to which the Commons have disagreed and doth agree to the Commons Amendment No. 10 to the words so restored to the Bill.

[Amendments printed earlier.]

Moved, That the House doth not insist on their Amendment No. 9 to which the Commons have disagreed and doth agree to the Commons Amendment No. 10 to the words so restored to the Bill.—(Lord Bellwin.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lord Bellwin

My Lords. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 12 to 14 to the Lords Amendment No. 11.

[Amendments Nos. 12 to 14 primed earlier.]

Moved, That this House doth agree with the said amendments.—(Lord Bellwin.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.