Roads (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]

HL Deb 29 March 1984 vol 450 cc418-62

Further considered on Report.

Clause 1 [Powers and duties of local roads authorities]:

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 1:

Page 1, line 8, leave out ("local roads") and insert ("highway").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think it should be noted that it is just after half past eight and here we are starting a very important Scottish Bill. I do not know when the Government think that we should rise, but I trust that it will be by half past ten. I can give the noble Lord due warning that I have complained about the treatment of Scottish business in this House before. It is quite scandalous that a Scottish Bill should come on at this time on a Thursday night and I duly give the noble Lord notice—and I am not going to hurry up anything that I want to say, because Scottish legislation deserves to be fully examined—that if the Government do not respond and say that we are going to finish at half past ten tonight, come what may, I am going to finish at half past ten tonight come what may.

Lord Denham

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me, but arrangements about the business are made through the usual channels, and it is very much better that it should be left that way and not discussed across the Floor of the House. I think that the noble Lord will realise that we had a Third Reading debate which took rather longer than we all anticipated. I do not think that it is useful to have this type of discussion across the Floor of the House.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, it may not be useful, but I think that the public in Scotland will be interested in what happens to Scottish business. I trust that the Government spokesman will realise that at one time the Scottish business was the first business on this day when we first arranged these things. Be that as it may, let us come to the first important amendment.

The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will well appreciate that I am no great friend of this Bill. In fact, we could have done well without it, and I still suggest to him that he loses it between this place and another place. It is not all that important and we would lose nothing at all by taking that course.

I should get a vote of thanks from the Government for tabling this amendment which seeks to remove the words "local roads" and insert "highway". If we took that course it would certainly improve Scottish legislation considerably and ease the work of those who have to deal with Scottish legislation, because we would be saving the Government from the endless consequential embarrassment as regards what has been a misguided decision on the part of the Government.

The fact is that the Government had to make changes in the roads legislation following the reorganisation of local government under the 1973 Act. That was nearly 12 years ago. This Bill was to follow on after the Civic Government Bill which was affected in the same way and which also was a pretty lengthy Bill. Then there was the Transfer of Functions Bill, which is now an Act of Parliament, and which also deals with the functions of local government. New and desirable amendments were needed in respect of roads legislation in Scotland.

Then someone—I do not know who—probably had the bright idea of lumping them all together and doing a bit of modernisation at the same time. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate—a very naive politician and not exactly experienced in the ways of Parliament and the wiles of civil servants—said, "Well, that is quite a good idea; let's carry on". So they decided that they would do something along these lines and that they would get rid of things like highways. It is not a strictly very modern term, but everyone knows what it means and everyone in local government knows about the highways department. The whole matter progressed from there.

I ask the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to look at Schedule 8. At the end of the last stage of the Bill the list of amendments had grown from 25 pages of minor and consequential amendments to 46 pages. If we look at the Marshalled List today we find that there are to be another 18 pages of amendments added to the schedule. So we have had nearly 60 pages of amendments for one schedule, and what does it do? Wherever they can find a Bill—and they have not found them all yet—where it says "highway", out it goes and in goes "road". Whenever they find the word "street" out it goes and in goes "road".

I remember asking the Government what they were doing about United Kingdom legislation which mentioned the word "highway" as regards both Scotland and England. Of couse, we eventually started trawling through those provisions and there were a considerable number of amendments. As far as I can see, so far they have trawled through about 62 Acts. That was the situation at the conclusion of the Committee stage. Then there were the sections to be repealed. I think that 11 whole Acts were repealed, and the 49 Acts involving repeal are all listed in yet another schedule.

It is quite crazy to interfere unnecessarily with something that everyone understands, and to throw us into this muddle and confusion which even the Government are experiencing—as I could show if we had time tonight—in respect particularly of some of the changes that they propose to Schedule 8. Let us get back to "highway".

It is interesting to see what has been done—for example, the 1972 Act, Chapter 20, Section 37; or the 1981 Act, Chapter 14, Section 88(2); and Schedule 7 paragraph 13. There is one thing in relation to "highway" that still exists, unless we are going to change it because "highway" is a tainted word. We still have the Highway Code. What will it mean in Scotland after we get rid of the word "highway" from all of our legislation? Will it be called the "Rules of the Road Code" in Scotland and the Highway Code in England? That may well be so before we get finished with the Bill in another place. I can assure your Lordships that it will not start at half past eight at night; it will start at half past ten in the morning. I cannot see the Government having the brass neck to guillotine this type of Bill. They might even try it; they are in such a hurry to get it—it is so important.

I can assure the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate that we could talk for months on this Bill and introduce new clauses and new ideas in respect of roads, even as the Government have done in this Bill. It all stems from the strange idea that, as well as doing what is necessary in relation to Scottish roads—that is bringing them up to date in relation to the re-organisations of local government—and doing what is desirable (that is, the new sections which have been introduced) because they have started on this innovatory modernisation, they have made an impossible task for the draftsmen. No doubt the draftsmen invited it on themselves. I am wondering whether there has been an MSC project around Edinburgh and they have taken on about 25 draftsmen in order to get through this.

It has been a long time between the Committee stage and the Report stage, which is simply due to the amount of work involved in this, and it is not finished yet. I think that it is quite wrong that we should have spent our time and used draftsmen's time, which is absolutely necessary, on this matter. Time and time again we hear noble Lords talking and complaining about the draftsmen. I do not know how the printers feel about the kind of material that they are receiving at the present time. I think it is a complete waste of time.

There should be priorities in relation to the Scottish Office. If we had gone back to using "highway" we would have saved ourselves a great deal of trouble, and we still would if we left "highway" in the Bill. I even received a letter from a local authority which still referred to "the highways authority". Having spoken about the highways authority for a long time, they were quite happy with it. Everyone knows what "highway" means. But we have to get rid of it—in some places.

I have also got rid of the word "public". What does that mean? It means that there will be only one highway authority, which is the local authority with the responsiblity for highways. It means that we shall not have this nonsense of proclaiming the Secretary of State as a "roads authority". The Secretary of State is the Secretary of State, and he has taken unto himself functions in respect of special roads. That is another point. If we modernise, we quickly discover that nobody knows what a special road is. Ask anyone in Scotland, and they will not know what a special road is. In this modernised legislation we are to keep special roads. What is a special road? It is a motorway. Then why do we not call it a motorway? Therefore, I think that we can cut out the Secretary of State as being the roads authority. He can exercise the functions that are given to him, and which have been given to him, in which he was never called a roads authority.

Therefore, if we accept this amendment it will not exactly throw us back to where we started, but we shall go a good way towards it, and in doing so we shall get rid of much of the nonsense that is presently in this Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, as the noble Lord has explained, his purpose is to change the structure of the Bill, which I tried to explain at some length earlier. The proposal to employ the new terminology was widely canvassed and was accepted as desirable by many organisations, including those most closely affected, such as the roads authority itself and the police.

In view of what the noble Lord said on earlier occasions, on the basis of the common use, as it were, in Scotland, I have had a look at this. I see that the appropriate departments in Strathclyde, Tayside, Grampian, Central, Borders, Dumfries and Galloway and Highland are called the roads departments. The only department that is referred to as the highways department is in Lothian. It does not matter much which word one chooses, so long as one sticks to it consistently, and we have sought to do that in all the places where it is appropriate to be consistent on this matter.

Accordingly, I hope that your Lordships will not think it right to change the word at this stage. The time is clearly ripe to adopt a simple, comprehensive, unambiguous term for Scottish roads law, and what better than "road"? To be consistent and to accord with the nomenclature already used by most regional councils, the authorities responsible for roads should be called "roads authorities". Although I appreciate my naivety, and so on, to which the noble Lord kindly referred, perhaps he would be kind enough to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, had the Government know in advance how many changes would have to be made in legislation which already exists because of this desire to standardise on the word "road", I wonder whether they would ever have embarked on the Bill at all? It is quite obvious that the changes are very much greater than they ever anticipated, considering the number of amendments to existing legislation made at the last stage and the ones being made in amendments tonight.

Having said that, I wonder whether there have been any problems created in Scotland in the adminis-tration of roads because we have a road, a street, a highway or any other variation? I spent more than a quarter of a century in local government, I am not aware that at any time the local authority of which I was a member had any difficulty because it was administering roads, streets, avenues, lanes and so on. Given the unwillingness of governments generally to abandon their legislation, I cannot help thinking that it would be a great deal easier at the end of the day if this Bill just disappeared and in due course something much simpler took its place.

Finally, on this point, I was rather interested in my noble friend Lord Ross saying that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate was a naive politician. On Tuesday he was giving some advice to the Minister of State for Scotland. He certainly does not have to give him any advice on this Bill, because the Minister of State had enough sense to keep out of it.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I appreciate the desire of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate that I should withdraw this amendment. He says that everyone agrees with him. I have a letter here from the Society of Directors of Administration in Scotland, and that letter does not talk about a roads authority; it talks about the "highways authorities". Old habits die hard. Will the police call their patrols "road patrols" instead of "highway patrols"?

The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has not answered my point about the Highway Code. Once the name Highway Code goes out of Scottish legislative parlance, it will not mean a thing. Can the noble and learned Lord tell me why the Government have not made these changes in the United Kingdom Road Traffic Acts in relation to the Highway Code, and why that has not been changed? What is the point of changing 99.9 per cent. and leaving the other 0.1 per cent? Or did they realise, when dealing with this, how silly they had been in getting into it?

I do not mind getting rid of "turnpikes", although it is interesting to note that the word "carriageway", which does not exactly have the tang of modernity about it, still remains. It has managed to escape the wiles of the draftsmen—probably because they could not think of any term to replace it. It is still there, despite the fact that it was in the 1839 Act, which is one of the first Acts that we mentioned. We trolled through Acts from about 1839 to 1982. That never worried anybody. The result is that we have these 46 pages of Schedule 8 which, by the time we are finished tonight, will be about 65 pages. Why is the Highway Code left, and is it the Government's intention, either during another stage of the Bill or later on, to get rid of it before we finish with "Mackay's monster"? And it is! I described it before as a "moger". (If anybody wants to know how to spell it, he or she can spell it as it sounds.) It is just a Scottish expression which cannot be bettered for a description of this kind of Bill; an absolute "moger". I cannot withdraw it.

On Question, amendment negatived.

8.50 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 2: Page 2, line 11, leave out from ("the") to ("; and") in line 13 and insert ("frontagers of that road").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with Amendment No. 2 it would be for convenience if I could speak also to Amendments 14, 16, and 69 [63]. Amendment No. 14: Page 14, line 39, leave out subsection (8). Amendment No. 16: Page 15, leave out lines 24 and 25. Amendment No. 63: Page 91, line 9, at end insert— (" "frontager", in relation to a road, means the owner of any lands and heritages fronting or abutting that road;").

These amendments arise directly from my undertaking to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, during Committee when I agreed to consider whether the definition of "frontager" would be more appropriately located in the interpretation clause. Having considered the matter, I see the force of what he was proposing and I hope that these amendments, which delete those definitions of "frontager" in the body of the Bill, insert it in the interpretation clause, and rephrase the text of Clause 1(4) in accordance with the definition, will be satisfactory to the noble Lord.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate for having made these changes. My only regret is that he did not find it possible to get away from "fronting or abutting". Incidentally, by a slip of the tongue the noble and learned Lord named the last amendment to which he was speaking as 69. It is of course 63.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I am obliged.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 3:

Page 2, leave out lines 16 to 18 and insert— ("and, where any representation is made within 28 days after the requirements of paragraphs (a) and (b) above have been fulfilled, the authority shall consider that representation:").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, during Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, asked that the drafting of this phrase be reviewed. I have reconsidered the structure of the sentence and trust that the amendment meets the point that the noble Lord was making. I beg to move.

Lord Hughes

My Lords. I am content.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 4 and 5:

Page 2, line 21, leave out ("or"). line 23, after ("Act") insert ("; or (iii) any deletion on transfer of such a road to another roads authority,").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to move Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 en bloc. The Bill provides that a roads authority prior to making alterations to their list of public roads must publicise their intentions except in two cases where publicity procedures would be excessive. These amendments provide for a third situation—the transfer of a public road from one roads authority to another. As such transfer would not affect passengers or road users, I am sure your Lordships will agree that this exemption would be appropriate. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, can the Lord Advocate give us any information of how often this has arisen, and has there been any trouble about it?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I am not able to say how often it has arisen. The noble Lord will appreciate that it is a possibility that has to be taken into account that a roads authority, for example the Secretary of State, would arrange to transfer the responsibility of the road from himself to a local roads authority, or there might be a change from one local roads authority to another. It does not seem appropriate to have advertisement at that stage, and accordingly this amendment deals with a possibility that might arise, and it seems right to do so.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, that was inviting information before the Lord Advocate was seated. I shall now proceed to speak on the matter. He gave me the answer I was looking for. If he accepts my amendment to get rid of the Secretary of State as a roads authority—which is a piece of nonsense; fancy calling the Secretary of State a roads authority—this problem would not arise in the one instance he mentioned where the Secretary of State might want to get rid of it from himself and give it to someone else.

If that happens there are one or two questions which arise, and people might be interested as to what the cost would be to the new authority to whom he is going to give it. If he is the roads authority in respect of trunk roads and special roads, then of course he is going to be 100 per cent. But it may well be that he will be handing it over to the local authority, transferring it to the present highway authority or new roads authority, and leaving them maybe to foot the bill for the actual maintenance and upkeep of that road. He could probably de-trunk it as well to ensure that they did have to pay a considerable sum of money. It is not quite so simple as the Lord Advocate suggests. In the instance to which he refers if there is a transfer, unadvertised, how are the ratepayers going to know, or find out, whether there is a new financial burden being placed on them by the Government?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, this provision is designed for dealing with frontagers and the like. So far as the financial responsibilities are concerned, the situation is that the rating burden will be a matter for the local authority, and in that situation one can well understand that they would be able to take the necessary action to bring what has happened to the attention of their ratepayers. This is not a provision dealing with ratepayers in general. This is a provision dealing with specific people who require notice.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I still cannot see how the Secretary of State could possibly come into it as a roads authority.

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Ampthill)

In the light of Lord Ross's intervention, I think I should put the amendments separately.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 6 and 7:

Page 2, line 33, at end insert—

("(5A) In subsection (5) above, "the requisite number" means—

1. (a) a majority; or
2. (b) such number as together owns lands and heritages which either—
1. (i) include not less than half of the boundary between the lands and heritages fronting or abutting the road mentioned in subsection (4)(a) above and that road; or
2. (ii) front or abut that road and have a net annual value which is not less than half of the total net annual value of all the lands and heritages which front or abut that road.")

Page 3, line 16, leave out subsection (9).

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to move Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 en bloc. During the Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, suggested that the definition of "the requisite number" would be more properly located after subsection (5) where the phrase is first used. In the light of the noble Lord's observations we have reconsidered the arrangement of the subsection and hope that these amendments meet the point that the noble Lord made. The definition of "the requisite number" will be amended, I hope, in accordance with Amendment No. 17 to subsection 4(a). I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, this makes a lot of sense, far better sense than it was before where you referred to a requisite number and then had to wait until you got a few sections further on to discover what a requisite number was all about. There is an indication of hasty draftsmanship. Bearing in mind that the draftsmen in the Scottish Office have been looking at this for 11 years, it does not say much for their efficiency since they got under new managment of late.

I welcome the fact that the Lord Advocate paid attention to the criticisms that came not only from me but I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, had something to say about this when it was going through on Committee stage, and we have to thank the Lord Advocate and the draftsmen who had a second look at this and saw just how wrong they were.

Clause 2 [Powers and duties of Secretary of State as roads authority: management and maintenance]:

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 8: Page 3, line 31, leave out ("special roads") and insert ("motorways").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think with this one we could take No. 9 as well, because it deals with virtually the same point I have already mentioned.

Amendment No. 9: Page 4, line 6, leave out ("as roads authority") and insert ("in relation to the roads mentioned in subsection (1)(a), (b) and (c) above").

The first thing is at page 3, line 31, where there is the reference to the Secretary of State becoming a roads authority, which I think is a piece of nonsense, and in respect of which the Secretary of State shall manage and maintain—

1. (a) trunk roads;
2. (b) special roads provided by him; and
3. (c) any other road constructed by him under Section 18 of this Act",

and so on. Well, "special roads provided by him". As I suggested before, we wondered what on earth was a special road. We looked up section after section and discovered that a special road is a motorway. If it is a motorway, why not say it? It is as simple as that. It is far too simple, I know, for the Government properly to appreciate. I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has to make up his own mind about this or whether he has to consult with higher powers as did the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. Fortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, is here so they can have a joint discussion about it.

The other point is getting rid of the Secretary of State as the roads authority. All we have to do is to wipe out "roads authority" and say that he will exercise the functions of A, B and C. That stops a lot of nonsense about calling it a local roads authority. They do not give the Secretary of State a special name; he is just a roads authority. They do not even say he is a national roads authority—but the local authority is the local roads authority. We had better get rid altogether of the differentiation between the local roads authority and the Secretary of State. We never had it before and we have never had any trouble about it. Let us get rid of it and it will once again simplify the Bill.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, this amendment may have—

Lord Ross of Marnock

Superficial attraction!

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I thank the noble Lord very much; with his great experience, he is able to anticipate.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I have read these briefs before!

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Ross; but I think I ought to read what I have to say all the same. "Motorways" would certainly be a word which a lot of people would understand. The truth of the matter is, however, that not all the special roads are motorways and therefore to make the amendment superficially attractive to the noble Lord would I think be a mistake. I hope in the light of that consideration he may feel able to withdraw it.

A motorway is defined as a special road which is limited to certain classes of traffic, and the Secretary of State presently has power to provide special roads for any grouping of the classes in Schedule 3 and not just those which fit into the definition of motorways. He would not wish to lose that flexibility, and I feel certain the noble Lord, Lord Ross, would not wish to deprive him of that flexibility.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, what I want is a little more flexibility from the Scottish Office; we do not see very much of it tonight. If that is all he is worried about he could add a few words to "motorway" and people will then know that "special roads" are mainly motorways.

I hope that the Government have not closed their minds to this matter and will look at it again because it is time we got rid of this phrase which no one understands. In view of what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has said and the special pleas he has made to me in respect of this, I will not call a Division and will ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 9 not moved. ]

Clause 4 [Agreements between authorities]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 10, 11 and 12:

Page 5, line 27, leave out ("(3)") and insert ("(2)")

Page 5, line 36, at beginning insert ("Subsection (1) above does not apply as regards functions under section 53 of this Act, but")

Page 5, line 39, leave out ("section 53 of this Act") and insert ("that section")

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, if the House is agreeable, I should like to take Amendments Nos. 10, 11 and 12 en bloc. Clause 4 empowers the Secretary of State to enter into agreements with local authorities for delegation of his functions. As the clause stands, it could be construed that the Secretary of State may delegate to any local authority his responsibilities with regard to trunk road picnic sites. The policy intention, however, is that these particular functions should be delegated only to a general or district planning authority. In other words, a planning authority which is either a district planning authority or a general planning authority. These amendments bring the clause into line with that intention.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate could expand on what is meant by "general planning authority"? The phrase "District planning authority" is understandable. Do I take it that when he talks about "general planning authority" he means, for instance, the Highlands Board or some area such as the GEAR project in the east or west end of Glasgow? I wonder whether he will kindly intervene to clear this matter up.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, the ordinary authority would be the district planning authority; but, as the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, knows, there are situations in which you have a general authority: for example, such as the Western Isles which is a general authority not properly described as a district planning authority. It is to cover that situation that I mentioned that.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, that clears up the point so far as tonight is concerned. When one thinks of it, is the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate not introducing a new title or definition of the Western Isles, the Orkney Isles district council or the Highland and Islands Council, by calling them "general planning authorities"? I think it would be rather confusing, as it obviously was to your Lordships here tonight, when the noble Lord spoke suddenly about "general and district planning authorities". Tonight it is understandable; but I wonder whether in the future there will need to be some clarification in the Bill in order to spell out that a general planning authority would be the authority which had both regional and district functions as the Highlands and Islands authorities have. I find it slightly confusing. I believe from looking at other noble Lords in the Chamber that they have a feeling of puzzlement as well.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, I should like to follow what my noble friend Lord Carmichael has said. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate instanced the Western Isles. Are there any other authorities which would require this reference to general planning authorities? If not, why does it not follow the normal pattern of saying an island as district authority?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, the regional planning authority may be a general planning authority if the functions are so given. The definition of the "general planning authority" is in the 1973 Local Government (Scotland) Act and the general planning authorities are the Borders region and Highlands region, Dumfries and Galloway region and the Islands Council. I gave the Islands Council as the the most typical example that came to my mind quickly; but the general authorites have all of these. It is appropriate that in these areas these authorities should be the ones to whom we might delegate this function.

Clause 7 [General provision as to special roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 13:

Page 8, line 44, at end insert ("and industry").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment provides for the Secretary of State to consider the requirements of industry, along with those of local and national planning and agriculture, before authorising the provision of a special road. The amendment is consistent with the alteration to Clause 5 made by the agreed amendment during Committee stage, which was moved by noble Lords opposite, and we were happy to accept that. This is a consequential amendment in another part of the Bill to make the policy consistent. I beg to move.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I should like to say how grateful we are to the Lord Advocate for adding this. When we are trying to expand industry and at the same time have additional roads where necessary it is important that industry should be included. I understand the special needs of agriculture when a new road can totally cut a field or a farm in two. It is important that industry should be considered in planning as well. We are grateful to the noble and learned Lord.

Clause 13 [Making up and maintenance of private roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 14:

[Printed earlier col. 422.]

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this amendment with Amendment No. 2. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 15: Page 15, line 2, leave out from ("appeal") to ("; and") in line 4 and insert ("by summary application to the sheriff").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a technical amendment, consequential to the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, and agreed during Committee, which changed the right of appeal from the Secretary of State to the sheriff. The appeal procedures outlined in this subsection before that change are no longer appropriate, and this amendment regularises the situation. I beg to move.

Clause 15 [Application for private road to become public road]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 16:

[Printed earlier: col. 422. ]

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have already spoken to Amendment No. 16 with Amendment No. 2. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 17:

Page 15, line 29, leave out (" 1(9) ") and insert (" 1(5A) ")

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment which corrects a cross-reference to Clause 1. I beg to move.

Clause 20 [Requirement of consent for new roads built other than by roads authority]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendent No. 18: Page 19, line 32, leave out from ("regulations") to end of line 34 and insert ("under subsection (7) below. (7) The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe the procedure to be followed in relation to an appeal to him under subsection (6) above, and such regulations may, without prejudice to the foregoing generality make provision for the determination of any such appeal by a person appointed by the Secretary of State and for the powers and duties of such a person in that regard. (8) The determination of an appeal under subsection (6) above may allow or dismiss the appeal, may modify any part of the decision of the local roads authority and shall be final.").

The noble and learned Lord said: my Lords, in moving this amendment I should like to speak at the same time to Amendment No 58. Amendment No. 58: Leave out Clause 132.

These amendments arise from acceptance at the Committee stage of the view of noble Lords opposite that appeals under Clause 13 against a notice for the making up of private roads should be made to the sheriff and not to the Secretary of State. In consequence, the terms of Clause 132, which originally applied to Clause 20 and to Clause 132, now apply only to Clause 20 on construction consent appeals. With the changed circumstances, I think your Lordships will agree that it would be helpful to the reader of the Bill, on the same principle that the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, made earlier, that Clause 132 be incorporated in Clause 20 since that is its only application now. These two amendments achieve that desirable aim.

At the same time the opportunity has been taken to make good an omission in Clause 132(2). That subsection enables the Secretary of State to allow the appeal, to dismiss it, or to modify the local roads authority's decision. It is obviously necessary that the same provisions should apply in the case of any person appointed by the Secretary of State under the regulations to determine appeals. Clause 132(2), as amended, will so provide, as a result of Amendment No. 18. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, this meets the wishes of the Committee, as I remember it. It is desirable to get rid of the appeal to the Secretary of State; after all, we cannot have this old pals' act with one roads authority hearing appeals in respect of another roads authority. If we are to have the Secretary of State as the appeal authority he might be prejudiced because he is acting as a roads authority. It is better to have an independent person. I quite accept the words, may modify any part of the decision … and shall be final". I think that is right.

Clause 23 [Alteration of levels of public roads]:

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 19: Page 20, line 21, leave out ("raise or lower or otherwise").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, if I remember rightly, this is in relation to the altering of the level of roads. We do not need to say "raise or lower". If the level is altered and we could just leave it at that—the road will be either raised or lowered. These words are otiose. I am sorry that Lord Lyell has gone because I am perfectly sure the advice he would give the Lord Advocate would be to accept this amendment. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I have carefully considered the suggestions which were made by the noble Lord at Committee stage. I wrote to the noble Lord with the considerations which led us to think that the phrase is better left as it is. I can see the force of his argument, but on balance I believe it is not wise to introduce a doubt by changing a provision where it would be better to make it clear.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I was grateful to get the opinion of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate as to why the words "raise or lower or otherwise" should be retained; but I feel that it would help to reduce the wordage. I understand the question of a camber in the road: the road may be raised at one point and lowered at another. But I still cannot understand—and I may be rather dull—why "A roads authority may alter as they think fit the level of a public road" cannot apply to that. They could raise the outside of the bend by one foot and lower the inside by six inches, and that would still be altering as they think fit. I do not want to be pedantic about it, but I feel that it is something which would make it easier when it goes to the other place at a later stage if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate could give it some thought. I hope he will think about it again.

On Question, amendment negatived.

9.15 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 20, 21 and 22: Page 22, line 26, leave out from ("if") to ("; and") in line 28 and insert ("the roads authority is the Secretary of State, he shall not carry out the proposed works without having considered the objection"). line 29, leave out from ("the") to ("without") in line 31 and insert ("roads authority is a local roads authority, they shall not carry out the proposed works"). line 33, at end insert ("and whose decision shall be final").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with leave, I should like to move Amendments Nos. 20, 21 and 22 en bloc. During the Bill's Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, expressed concern regarding the wording of Clause 30(4), which specifies procedures for considering unwithdrawn objections to drainage works. These amendments are intended to clarify the procedure to meet the points the noble Lord raised. I hope that the amendments do that adequately. I beg to move.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate for dealing with this. The wording which I suggested at the last stage appeared in another part of the Bill. As the Bill stands, it almost looks as if the Secretary of State is not going to pay any attention to any representations which are made because it seems to indicate that he would go ahead anyway. The alternative wording later in the Bill is better, so I am glad.

May I take this opportunity of saying that the trains to my part of the world are earlier than the ones on which my noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock can rely. I will not be staying until half past ten, but will be leaving very shortly.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, we cannot either raise or alter or lower the levels at railway stations to enable trains to leave to suit the eccentricities of government business in this place, and I can appreciate the difficulties of my noble friend. Dundee is a lot further away than is Glasgow.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, it is Gleneagles.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, even better. I hope my noble friend has his golf clubs with him. This is a considerable improvement; there is no doubt about it. It seemed that you could appeal to the Secretary of State but he did not need to consider your letter of your objections before he made any decision. This makes it clear. It is what I would expect a fair-minded man like the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to accept. I am very glad he has done it. The wording is quite good, too.

Clause 32 [Snow gates]:

The Deputy Speaker My Lords, before I call Amendment No. 23, I would point out that if it is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 24.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 23: Page 23, line 15, leave out from ("when") to end of line 25 and insert ("snow is rendering or has rendered that road unsafe for such traffic; and where in the opinion of a constable such an occasion has arisen as respects a road he (or, where the constable is a chief constable, a person acting on his behalf) may, until the road is once again safe for vehicular traffic, close and secure any snow gate on the road against all such traffic except that engaged in the provision or restoration of essential services.

(2) In subsection (1) above— "constable" and "chief constable" shall be construed in accordance with sections 50 and 51 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 (interpretation); "engaged in the provision or restoration of essential services" means in the opinion of a constable so engaged; and "safe" means in such opinion safe.").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that at Committee stage I undertook to re-examine this clause in the light of the comments made during that stage. I have reconsidered the clause and the points that were then made, and I hope that this amendment satisfies your Lordships. I think it is a good deal simpler than we had before, and covers the two ideas of danger that has already occurred, or in respect of what has already happened, and what may be happening at the time. At the same time as meeting these points we have taken the opportunity to make it clear that any constable may close the gates when he judges it necessary to do so, and that where the chief constable decides to close the gates he may arrange for this to be done by, for example, a snow-plough driver employed by the local authority, on his authority. This was an improvement suggested to us by the chief constables. I think that it is a practical suggestion to meet a practical situation. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I am glad that the Government have looked at this clause, because it was in a pretty awful state. I am very glad that we have got rid of it, because if we accept this it will rule out my next amendment, a very important amendment, and will get rid of the words "precipitation or accumulation of snow". I think a special medal should be struck for the draftsman who thought of that one. But at the same time I do not think they have done very well—at least they could have done it much more neatly—in meeting the wishes of chief constables. My first objection would be to the fact that the wording says, "snow is rendering", and so on. Why not just use the word "made"? Why put "rendered"? What great glory is there in using the longer word? I think that "Mr. Precipitation" has come back again in respect of falling snow.

My second point is that I do not think it is a good idea, after you have a simple clause like this, to have to resort to an interpretation as to what you really mean. For example, it refers to a constable '… engaged in the provision or restoration of essential services' means in the opinion of a constable so engaged; and 'safe' means in such opinion safe". Quite frankly, with the putting of these words "in his opinion" in places, we do not require this. This is bad drafting. I can understand the difficulties the draftsmen have had, because they had to go through all these Acts of Parliament and so on, but they could have paid a little more attention to this one since they realised how wrong it was. I know you have to cover the business of an argument about whether it is right to re-open a gate, and someone may have damage done and then they could sue the chief constable. This is what the chief constables were worried about, I am perfectly sure: as to whether or not, in exercising a function, they had acted unwisely. It would have been quite easy to cover that by putting these words into the body of the clause instead of using this very ugly and awkward way of doing it by putting in virtually an interpretation, and a rather queer one at that, at the end of the clause. So while I am prepared to accept these amendments now, I hope the Government will appreciate that they are far from finished with this and that they have not cleared it up.

[Amendment No. 24 not moved.]

Clause 60 [Temporary prohibition or restriction of traffic etc. on roads for reasons of public safety or convenience]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 25:

Page 40, line 4, at end insert— ("(5) A person who contravenes a restriction or prohibition imposed by virtue of subsection (1) above commits an offence.").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I would like to move Amendment No. 25 and to speak at the same time to Amendment No. 71.

Amendment No. 71: Page 109, line 9, at end insert—

(". Section 60(5) (contravention of temporary res-triction or prohibition of traffic or foot passage on road).

Level 2."

Clause 60 allows a road authority by order temporarily to prohibit or restrict traffic and foot passage on roads for reasons of public safety or convenience. Amendments Nos. 25 and 71 provide that it will be an offence to contravene such an order. This seems to be obviously appropriate, and I beg to move.

Clause 64 [Maintenance of vaults and cellars etc.]:

9.24 p.m.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 26:

Page 41, line 7, leave out ("things").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think I have got to apologise to your Lordships in that, for some reason or other, I was not present during the Committee stage when we came to this particular point. This is one I feel very stongly about. It may well be that it goes back to my days as a schoolmaster when I taught English. I always regarded a person who used the word "things" as a person with an inadequate vocabulary. It was not a matter which I used to apply to the draftsmen and I think that the way they had drafted this particular clause is really shocking. We have got "things'; in line 7; we have got "things" in line 9; and I think we have "thing" in line 21. This is proclaiming an inadequacy of words. That does not do justice at all to the reputation of the Scottish Office.

I would have thought the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate would have paid some attention to this aspect. After all, he is the boss of the draftsmen. They are not employed by the Scottish Office but are employed by the Crown Office; from my experience, I think I am right in saying that.

I should also apologise because I said that I would examine this clause and draft something much better. Unfortunately, we have been spawning legislation in the Scottish Office. We have dealt with tourism, inshore fishing, education, tenants' rights—and another local government Bill about valuation and rating is coming. Certainly my staff has been expanded very considerably by the arrival of my noble friend Lord Carmichael—but even the two of us find it hard going handling four or five Bills at the one time. It is rather like a juggler keeping balls in the air all the time. If there are too many, one is going to fall. I have to proclaim my inadequacy in this respect; I am not a good juggler. I was a good juggler but I am getting rather creaky in my joints, and my eyesight is not what it was, so maybe one or two slip through—I am very glad that the cavalry have arrived back again.

Surely the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, could pay some special attention to this. He must agree with everything I have said about resorting to using the word "thing"; it is awful. In a country so proud of its education standards, to have this word in an important Scottish Bill is just too much. An improvement could be achieved simply by use of punctuation and dropping the word "things", certainly at the beginning. One could probably exercise a little more ingenuity in respect of the last "thing" that is mentioned in this clause. I hope, again, that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will not be satisfied with second best because this is pretty poor stuff. I expect far better from the Scottish Office.

My amendment would take out "things", and the subsection would still make sense. It would read: (1) As regards any road, the following shall be kept in good condition and repair".

That makes sense, does it not? I also object to the description of certain items—for example arch, cellar and tunnel".

Is a tunnel a "thing"? Even the most elementary definition of a "thing" is something quite substantial.

I do not want to go on because it is getting far too late and I know that my noble friend may want to contribute to this debate before he leaves for Gleneagles and all points north. I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate appreciates that I am serious about this point and that I am not joking. I think it is a dreadful clause—in a dreadful Bill admittedly; but still, that does not mean we should accept it without some criticism. I beg to move.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, I should like to support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock. This wording is rather schoolboyish and we could do better. The word "things" could be left out altogether. I humbly suggest that we use instead the phrase, the following structures". They are structures or structural features. Such wording would make this clause a little more dignified. In fact, the word "things" is wrong because one thing a "thing" is not is an open space; that it is jolly well not. It is really quite the wrong word to use. I do not suppose it will make a great deal of difierence to the law of this country but this clause might read a little better in ordinary English.

Lord Hughes

My Lords, I should not like to leave—as my noble friend Lord Ross of Marnock put it—for Gleneagles and points north (because that is a correct description of where I am going) without making it quite clear that I am in full agreement with him. I am not leaving at this point because I disagree with my noble friend.

As the noble Earl has said, this amendment would at least make the clause seem more presentable, rather than leave it looking, as it does at the moment, as though we were stuck for a word. I am quite certain that for an advocate of the distinction of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate himself it cannot appeal to him that this word is the best possible way of dealing with the situation. The Lord Advocate will forgive me if I do not wait for his reply, but I will have the pleasure later on of reading what is reported. I have a feeling that I am leaving at a very entertaining part of the proceedings.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords for their comments on this clause and certainly if we are able to think of a better word we shall do so. Up to now we have not been able to do so. We had hoped that the noble Lord, Lord Ross, would help us, but I appreciate the task which he so eloquently described to us. So far we have not been able to think of anything better but we shall not discontinue our efforts.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I am glad to hear that the Government have not finished. Now that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has got the Telecommunications Bill out of his blood it may be that he, too, will be able to look at these rather awkward pieces of legislation because we cannot let a thing like this go on. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, is right. This is schoolboy stuff. We can do better. I think we should write that at the bottom of this particular report sheet—we can do better and we have got to do better. With those remarks, I certainly shall withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdraw.

Clause 66 [Power of roads authorities to stop up roads by order]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 27: Page 42, line 13, leave out ("or cyclists") and insert (", cyclists or both").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment which makes it clear that the provision will allow for reserving a right for either pedestrians or cyclists or both. I beg to move.

Clause 69 [Provisions supplementary to sections 66 to 68]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 28:

Page 43, line 29, leave out ("other") and insert ("another")

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with your Lordships' leave I should like to move Amendments Nos. 28, 29 and 30 together.

Amendment No. 29: Page 43, line 30, leave out ("are") and insert ("is") Amendment No. 30: Page 43, line 44, leave out second ("the") and insert ("a")

These three amendment make slight drafting changes. Amendment Nos. 28 and 29 make "means of access" singular to clarify that only one alternative means of access is needed prior to stopping up a private access. The way it was in before was slightly ambiguous. Amendment No. 30 replaces the definite article in the term "the special road" with the indefinite article because there is no previous mention of special roads in the clause and no necessary implication that proceedings under Clause 67 or Clause 68 will be as regards a special road. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 31:

Page 44, line 8, leave out subsection (7).

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, may I speak to Amendment Nos. 31 and 34 together.

Amendment No. 34: After Clause 70, insert the following new clause: Expenses incurred under section 67 or by virtue of section 68 or 70. (". Any expenses incurred under section 67, or by virtue of section 68 or 70, of this Act by a local roads authority shall be deemed for the purposes of section 3 of this Act to be incurred in road construction or improvement.")

These amendments remove subsection (7) from Clause 69 and put in a free-standing clause in an improved form as it applies equally to Clause 70. If it was in Clause 69 alone it would be somewhat ambiguous in that application. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, we appreciate what is done here. We think it is right and thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate for it.

Clause 70 [Stopping up private access to land or premises by agreement]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 32:

Page 44, line 21, leave out ("under") and insert ("by virtue of).

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 together.

Amendment No. 33: Page 44, line 34, leave out ("under") and insert ("by virtue of").

These are minor drafting amendments. There is no direct power in the clause to stop up a private access, so stopping up cannot be achieved directly under the clause. It is for this reason that we have added the words "by virtue of. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, it is a very important amendment. The Minister said that he was adding the words "by virtue of. As I understand it, he is not doing that. He is leaving out the word "under" and inserting the words "by virtue of. That may be right. The next amendment is Amendment No. 34. There is something there that rather intrigues me. Instead of "under" or "by virtue of the section, we have them both. It states: Any expenses incurred under Section 67". Under" is the offending word in the present amendments. Amendment No. 34 continues: or by virtue of Section 68 or 70, of this Act". It is intriguing why we have them both.

I have a note here of a further thing that I spotted, and that is in Amendment No. 69. This may save the Lord Advocate giving an answer which may not quite fit. It states: A power conferred on a roads authority by, under or—by virtue of. We have the whole lot this time. Can the Lord Advocate sort all that out for my simple mind: why, first, the word "under" should not be used and the words "by virtue of inserted; why then "under"' and also "by virtue of are used; and why then it can be: by. under or—by virtue of in respect of a power conferred? That is Amendment No. 69 when we come to it. If we are to do this thing fairly, we want to be absolutely sure of consistency and accuracy. There may well be an answer, but I have to be convinced.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, the noble Lord is of course perfectly right that the words "by virtue of are being substituted for the word "under". I said originally, I think, that the word "under" was not accurate and I was wishing to add "by virtue of. That was intended to be instead of the word "under". The reason that the word "under" is not accurate in this particular context is that there is no direct power under the clause to stop up a private access; but the clause empowers the road authority to enter into an agreement to stop up the access, and it is under the agreement, and therefore by virtue of the clause, that the access is closed. It depends on the phraseology in the particular provision. If the provision does it directly itself, it would be appropriate to say "by". If the provision contains a direct authority, it would be "under". If the provision contains an authority to enter into something else, then it is "by virtue of. That is the reason for these three phrases or words occurring in Amendment No. 69. It depends on the context, as I am sure the noble Lord appreciates.

Lord Airedale

My Lords, I think that the Lord Advocate is to be congratulated on that explanation.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords. I add my congratulations and my admiration of the Lord Advocate for the lucidity of his explanation. I am very glad that he thought of it himself and it was not designed for him in any brief from a draftsman or a civil servant, because they would have got it all wrong.

Clause 73 [Provisions supplementary to section 72]:

9.38 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 35: Page 47, line 3, leave out from ("position") to ("and") in line 5 and insert (", clearances for the passage of vessels and dimensions of the proposed bridge;").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is intended to make a simplification. It makes a small change to the required content of plans and specifications to be attached to an order or scheme for the construction of a bridge over navigable waters. It is modern practice to make such an order or scheme before the bridge design is complete; and it is not realistic in practice, as we have discovered on this particular provision, to have a requirement to specify details about the spans, headways and waterways. I hope that your Lordships will agree that it would be sufficient for the navigation authority and others to know the dimensions of the proposed bridge and the clearance for vessels. That is really what they need to know. I beg to move.

Clause 75 [Power to divert waters when constructing or improving public road etc.]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 36: Clause 75, leave out clause 75 and insert the following new clause: ("Power to divert waters when constructing or improving public road etc.

.—(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, the roads authority may divert, or carry out works in relation to, inland waters (whether natural or artificial) or tidal waters where, in the opinion of the authority such diversion is, or as the case may be works are, necessary for the construction, improvement or protection of a public road or of a site or facilities provided under section 53 of this Act.

(2) Before proceeding under subsection (1) above, the roads authority shall—

1. (a) serve on the owner and the occupier of any land affected, and on any navigation authority concerned with or having jurisdiction over the waters or over the area comprising those waters, notice of their intention so to proceed, describing the proposed diversion or works and informing them that they may object to the proposed diversion or works by notice to the authority within 28 days after service of the notice of intention on them; and
2. (b) consult any local authority in whose area the waters are situated and any other body acting under statutory powers, being powers the exercise of which may, in the opinion of the roads authority, be affected by the works:

Provided that, as regards any diversion or works, consultation under paragraph (b) above shall not be required with an authority or body receiving notice under paragraph (a) above.

(3) Where such objection as is provided for in subsection (2)(a) above is made in accordance with that subsection and is not withdrawn, then—

1. (a)if the roads authority is the Secretary of State, he shall not carry out the diversion or works without having considered the objection; and
2. (b) if the roads authority is a local roads authority they shall not carry out the diversion or works without the consent of the Secretary of State who may grant such consent either unconditionally or subject to such terms and conditions as he thinks fit and whose decision shall be final.").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is intended to provide a requirement to serve notice on the navigation authority concerned and give that authority the right to object to proposed works, to divert waters in connection with construc-tion or improvement of a public road. The amendment also compresses the clause by drawing all provision about notices and consultation into one subsection and I think that achieves a simplification. I beg to move.

Clause 81 [Determination of questions arising out of section 80]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 37:

Page 54, line 29, leave out subsection (3).

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment which removes an unnecessary reference to the Arbitration Act of 1950. I beg to move.

Clause 83 [Removal of builders' skips causing danger or obstruction]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 38:

Page 55, line 29, at end insert— (" ( ) Subsections (1) and (2) above are without prejudice to section 121(1A) of this Act.").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment is the first of a series in which the other amendments are Nos. 39, 52, 53, 54 and 72.

Amendment No. 39: Clause 84, page 56, line 3, at beginning insert ("Without prejudice to sections 57 and 121(1A) of this Act") Amendment No. 52: Clause 121, page 77, line 31, at end insert—

("(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, places or deposits anything in a road so as to obstruct the passage of, or to endanger, road users commits an offence: Provided that no person shall, in respect of the same actings, be convicted both under the foregoing provisions of this subsection and under sections 57(2), 87, 92, 97(a) or 98 of this Act, or subsection (8) of this section, of an offence.").

Amendment No. 53: Page 77, line 37, at beginning insert ("Without prejudice to subsection (1A) above,"). Amendment No. 54: Page 78, line 23, at beginning insert ("Without prejudice to subsection (1A) above,").

Amendment No. 72: Schedule 7, page 109, line 41, at end insert—

(". Section 121 (1A) (placing or depositing in road something which obstructs or endangers road users).

Level 2.")

My Lords, these amendments result from the undertaking which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, to consider whether Clause 57 might cover cases of danger to road users resulting not directly from something that was already set up, as it were, but from thorns strewn over the road during hedge cutting operations. I think the noble Lord mentioned that it was raised with him as a practical problem by one of the local authorities.

I think I said at the time that my impression was that it was probably covered, but having looked at the matter in more detail I think it is wise to make these amendments to make sure that what the noble Lord had in mind was as a practical matter covered. So Amendment No. 52 makes it an offence to place or deposit anything on a road which endangers or obstructs the passage of road users, but provides or ensures that offenders cannot be prosecuted twice for the same offence where there is an apparent overlap in other clauses. That is the point in the way: the other clauses appear to me almost to cover all of these; but to make it certain, we thought we should put this in. But we have also to make sure that the person cannot be prosecuted twice for the same offence in respect of the same subject matter. The Amendments Nos. 38, 39, 53, 54 and 72 are a necessary result of that proposed new offence. I beg to move.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Lord Advocate for having looked at this point. It was actually the Automobile Association, through I think their legal department, who had some problems with this very subject with ferns or nettles or something on the road that caused difficulties to certain vehicles on the road.

I am grateful for the very interesting way the Lord Advocate has sought to understand and meet my difficulties. There is only one point on the objections I raised: I wonder whether he could speak a little more fully on what powers there are so that this obstruction on the road can be abated or removed? What powers are there for the police to make sure that this obstruc-tion is removed, or this nuisance is removed and how will it be dealt with in terms of fines? I refer to section 160(4) of the Highway Act 1980. This applies to the Greater London Council but it seems appropriate in this particular instance. Perhaps it would be possible in some way to strengthen the powers of local authorities to deal with an obstruction although they may very well be the people—particularly in dealing with rural roads—who are causing the obstruction. The subsection states: In the circumstances mentioned … above the highway authority or, as the case may be, the Greater London Council may by notice require the person causing the obstruction to take such steps as may appear to the highway authority or. as the case may be, the Council to be necessary, and as are specified in the notice, to mitigate or discontinue the obstruction". I wonder whether there are any provisions in the amendments to cover the two points. First, how can the offender be forced to remove the obstruction and, secondly, what would be the fine, and where is the provision for the fine if the person is convicted? How does that fine compare with a fine under the Act that I have quoted? I appreciate that it is unfair to ask the Lord Advocate at this time to give any positive view on the Act that I have just quoted—the Highways Act 1980—but perhaps the information that 1 have given him will be of assistance.

The motoring organisations have tried to point out to me the very real problem here. Perhaps it is covered in other parts of the Bill which the motoring organisations and myself have not been able to pick up. However, if the Lord Advocate cannot give an answer now. perhaps he will think about it and come back to it at a later stage. I am grateful for the efforts that he has made to meet the problem that I raised earlier. This is just another aspect of it that perhaps has not been totally met by the amendments.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, my impression is that the cleansing provisions would deal with the kind of point that the noble Lord has in mind so far as removal is concerned. With regard to the fine, it is level 2 on the standard scale, which as at this date is, I think, £50; I speak from memory. The figures are given at the moment in the schedule, though we are proposing later to take them out for the reason that they will become outdated, and it might be misleading to leave them there. Yes, £50 is the amount of the penalty under level 2 at the present time. Perhaps I may later have an opportunity to reply more fully to the noble Lord on the first aspect of what he mentioned in relation to the statute to which he referred. But I think I have answered the principal points that he has made, and I am obliged to him.

Clause 84 [Power to remove structures from roads):

9.38 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 39:

[Printed above.]

Clause 87 [Restriction on placing bridges, beams, rails etc. over roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 40: Page 57, line 23, after ("may") insert (", within 28 days of the refusal or consent,").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment limits to 28 days the time for lodging an appeal with the sheriff against a refusal of consent or a grant of conditional consent for placing apparatus over a road. It seems right to have a limit to the time in which one can appeal. I beg to move.

Clause 90 [Protection of road users from dangers near a road]:

The Earl of Selkirk moved Amendment No. 41:

Page 59, line 31, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").

The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move this amendment. It concerns a point that I have raised on more than one earlier occasion. Here the word, "obstruction" includes visual obstruction. It is defined as constituting, "a danger to road users". To my mind, in those circumstances there should be an obligation on the local authority, or for that matter on the frontager if he is a private person, to see that the obstruction is removed. It should not be left as a matter of choice, which is what the word "may" means. There should be an obligation that the obstruc-tion be removed.

I think that this arises in particular on roads with sharp corners where there may be a pile of soil or something else which makes the view very much worse. I am glad to make this proposal because here most of the obligations are on frontagers, those on each side of the road. It think that there should be a certain degree of obligation directly on the local authority itself, which is the major authority when it comes to seeing that the roads are in good condition. It is for these reasons that I should like to suggest that the word "may" should be "shall", to make it clear that there is an obligation to see that the danger is removed. I beg to move.

Lord Airedale

My Lords, surely this amendment must be right. The effect of the clause as it stands is to say that if the authority is of the opinion that something constitutes a danger to road users it may please itself whether or not it takes the appropriate steps to remove the danger. We really cannot leave it like that, can we?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I would respectfully doubt whether the clause, as it is worded, has exactly the sense that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, says. I am, however, extremely happy to accept the amendment, so possibly we need not conduct the theoretical argument any further.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord on this occasion.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, may I also thank the noble Lord and say that I wish that we had had his retrospective presence when we discussed exactly the same point with the Minister of State, Lord Gray of Contin, in respect, I think, of the repairs clause? Obviously, the Government were giving a new right, they put in the word "may", and would not look at the need to put in the word "shall" to make it mandatory upon the Secretary of State. Solomon has come to judgment! I give notice that at the next stage of that Bill I shall repeat my amendment and I shall quote the Lord Advocate. It is a very good decision that he has made here. I knew that if the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, remained by his side we would get some good results.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 42: Page 59, line 34, after ("may") insert (", subject to subsection (6)(a) below,").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 42 I should like to speak also to Amendment No. 46. Amendment No. 46: Page 60, line 24, leave out from ("person") to ("the") in line 25 and insert ("who considers that in all the circumstances he should not be required—

1. (a) to pay such expenses as are mentioned in subsection (1) above, may within 28 days of the first written intimation to him by the roads authority of their intention to recover those expenses from him; or
2. (b) to take such steps as are specified in a notice served on him under subsection (2) above, may within 28 days of such notice, refer").

At Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, drew attention to the wide powers conferred on roads authorities by Clause 90 and the apparent lack of safeguards for the owner of land against improper or insensitive use of those powers. After consideration of the points made by the noble Lord and by others, I am happy to say that it seems right to extend the provision for appeal to the sheriff in circumstances where the owner of the land affected considers that he should not be required to carry out the work demanded by the roads authority or to pay for work done by that authority. The amendment makes that provision in the sense, I think, that the noble Lord indicated. I hope that it is acceptable.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I am grateful to the Lord Advocate for having taken the trouble to find a form of words that expresses fairly well what I was trying to explain to the Committee. I thank him.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 43 and 44. Page 59, line 39, leave out ("a fence made with electric wire") and insert ("an electrified fence"). Page 60, line 1, after ("wire,") insert ("electrified fence",).

The noble and learned Lord said: If your Lordships agree, I should like to take these amendments en bloc. During the Committee stage your Lordships remarked upon the sweeping nature of this clause. As presently drafted, subsection (2)(b) of Clause 90 would catch any fence made with what is described as electric wire even if there was no intention of passing an electric current through the wire. The amendments limit the scope of the provision to fences carrying electricity. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, what is an electrified fence? I can understand the difficulties about electric wire. The only time I have ever heard of electric wire is in a celebrated poem: Across the electric wire the news came, The King is no better, he is just the same". I think that dates from the early part of the century. I can understand electric wire, but I cannot understand electric fence. It is capable of being electrified but it is not always electrified, as I understand it. It is a point that we want to get clear and it is another matter for the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to ask his advisers to have a look at.

It is better than it was, but I still do not think that it is quite right. It would imply that the fence is constantly live and, as I understand it, these fences can be switched on and off on occasion.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, the point is that the danger arises from the fence as electrified. But obviously I am happy to consider what the noble Lord has said to see if we can get it even better.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, may I suggest that an electric light is not always turned on?

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I know, and that is why it is wrong.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 45:

Page 60, line 5, after ("notice,") insert ("to").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is to correct a printing omission. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 46:

[Printed above.]

Clause 92 [Deposit of mud from vehicles on roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 47:

Page 61, line 9, leave out ("carriageway") and insert ("road").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment extends to footways and footpaths the offence of dropping mud et cetera from vehicles on to the carriageway so as to cause danger or substantial inconvenience to road users. The noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, drew to my attention at the Committee stage that mud sprayed from vehicles on to the footway was equally dangerous and distressing to pedestrians as it was to traffic on the carriageway. That very much commended itself as a sensible improvement to the Bill, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for making the suggestion, and I hope that your Lordships will accept the amendment.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. As regards changing "carriageway" to "road" I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord a question relating to an earlier matter as regards which we should perhaps have put down an amendment. I understand that it has to be "road" because "carriageway" is merely the road upon which a carriage or vehicle will drive. Therefore, the road presumably extends from the heel of the pavement to the heel of the pavement—if we still have pavements; I am not sure whether we do have them in Scotland. Is that why the roads authority is now totally responsible for the removal of, for instance, snow and therefore there would need to be a much more complicated definition than "road" if the roads authority were not responsible for removing, for example, snow from the frontages of commercial and domestic premises? Is that one of the reasons behind the fact that we have been trapped into a situation where the roads authority on the day of a snowfall will need to get out and clear all the snow from the pavements and what we still call the road?

Because we have become trapped in words we have also become trapped in a very practical way. The roads authority will be doing a great job if they merely manage to keep the roads clear and traffic flowing, without also clearing the frontage of every shop and domestic premises in the area. I really want to get an explanation from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate as to whether this was one of the reasons why we were unable to deal with the snow problem much earlier.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, so far as the structure of the Bill is concerned we have tried to distinguish between the carriageway, the footway, the footpath and so on so as to make it plain when we are dealing with, for example, only a carriageway. But "road" is defined to include the carriageway and also the footway, if there is one—in other words, the pavement as well. So it covers the whole lot and it makes it easier precisely to define the scope of any obligation. To take this example the noble Lord pointed out to me that before we did it only for the carriageway. That was not satisfactory for the reasons which he gave. We are able to make it precise as covering also what we might call the pavement or the footway simply by using the word "road". That extends to cover the whole thing. That is the explanation of why we do it this way. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I understand that it is comprehensive, and it is right in respect of things that fall off the back of a lorry. They might not just fall on the carriageway; they might fall on the pavement. But it is rather sad from a local authority's point of view when in using the word "road", it includes the pavement and we place upon them a new obligation (such as my noble friend Lord Carmichael mentioned) of clearing what used to be called the "pavement".

It is terrible that we are losing all these words. Not only are "turnpike" and "highway" going but even "pavement" goes. It is far too simple. People understand what a pavement is. We cannot possibly have it in legislation if it is as simple as that! It is a very important matter from the point of view of a local authority, and expense. We shall probably need to wait until the next stage of the Bill to get this cleared up. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate had a little experience of this on about 19th January when pavements in Scotland—whether you call them parts of roadways, extensions of this, that, or the next thing—could not be seen. It was quite impossible for the local authorities to undertake the business of clearing them, which is a new obligation on them and to which they object. But it would be quite out of order in respect of this amendment.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Carmichael for giving me a chance to raise this point and I hope that the Government will look at it. It is not included in this particular clause, but what the Government are doing here is right. I have already said that I am very grateful to them. I just do not know how the word "carriageway" has managed to escape the modernising eyes of the civil servant and the draftsman. As regards its original meaning, the carriage goes on the way, but very few carriages as such go on it now. It might have been a motorway or a vehicleway. Ordinary folk would just call it the road. But then it is no longer the road.

I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate appreciates the kind of muddles we can get into by his misguided decision to get rid of highways and streets and by calling everything roads. It has not simplified matters at all, as, indeed, we have seen here. However, I have no objection at all to this amendment.

Clause 93 [Extraordinary expenses in repairing roads damaged by heavy vehicles etc. ]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 48:

Page 62, line 12, leave out ("(3)") and insert ("(4)").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting amendment. I beg to move.

Clause 97 [Damage to wads etc. ]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 49:

Page 64, line 42, at end insert ("or").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 49, I should also like to speak to Amendment No. 50. Amendment No. 50: Page 65, line 1, leave out paragraphs (d) and (e),

Amendment No. 50 removes from the Bill the offence of wilful damage to things associated with a road. Amendment No. 49 makes a minor adjustment to the remaining provisions of the clause to accommo-date that change. Having looked at the matter in the light of a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, in Committee, I am satisfied that wilful damage to road accessories is covered by the crime of vandalism in Section 78 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980, and there is no need for duplication of the offence in this Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 50:

[Printed above.]

Clause 107 [General provisions as to acquisition of land]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 51:

Page 69, line 21, after ("or") insert ("sections").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a simple drafting amendment. I beg to move.

Clause 121 [Miscellaneous summary offences]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 52, 53 and 54:

[Printed earlier: col. 439.]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 55:

Page 78, line 41, after ("paragraphs") insert ("of this proviso").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a very minor drafting amendment. I beg to move.

Clause 123 [Penalties and mode of trial]:

10.5 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 56:

Page 79, line 27, after ("offence") insert ("and").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, if I might I should like to take 56, 57 and 70 together. Amendment No. 57: Page 79, line 28, leave out from ("offence") to end of line 30. Amendment No. 70: Page 108, line 27 to page 110, line 8, leave out column 3.

Their combined effect is to delete references to the financial value of maximum penalties for offences under the Bill. When the Bill was drafted it seemed appropriate to set out these values, and your Lordships have seen these. As the sums concerned are likely to change over time, however, and indeed will change on 1st May 1984 as a result of a statutory instrument, the figures in the Bill will become outdated and their retention would not, in the light of the circumstances, be helpful and might even be misleading to the users of the statute. In these circumstances it is better that they should be omitted and these amendments so provide. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 57:

[Printed above.]

Clause 132 [Appeals to Secretary of State: general provisions]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 58:

[Printed earlier: col. 429.]

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this amendment was taken with Amendment No. 18. I beg to move.

Clause 136 [Regulations, orders and schemes]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 59:

Page 88, line 9, after ("instrument") insert ("—(a)").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with permission I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 60 and 61. Amendment No. 60: Page 88, line 10, leave out ("—(a)") and insert ("and"). Amendment No. 61: Page 88, line 20, leave out ("be of no effect unless it is") and insert ("not be made under subsection (1) above unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before Parliament and has been").

These amendments provide that regulations and orders subject to affirmative resolution in both Houses should be laid in draft rather than final form. This procedure would reduce parliamentary time in situations where amendments were found necessary; for example, in the light of your Lordships looking at them before the debate actually took place before the regulations or orders had been approved. There is a misprint in Amendment No. 61 as printed in the Marshalled List. There is an extra word: "to". It should read, "not be made". I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, it really is nonsense that we should be doing this at such a time and be denied full consideration. This is an important amendment and I doubt whether people realise the importance of it. My noble friend Lord Carmichael, who was at the Ministry of Transport as a Minister, was just reminding me not long ago that if you introduced the Highway Code under a regulation you just could not amend it. It was there. So you had to let it go through and introduce it again knowing it was wrong and make the change, whereas if you introduce it in draft form the changes that come in relation to the advice you get from outside departments and from the House can be adopted and then approved in final form. This was the way I believe with even teachers' salaries when in those days they used to be introduced by form of regulation in the House. It is not done very often now; but it has a lot to commend it in respect of the importance of what is being done. I am grateful to the Lord Advocate for having put this in the Bill, but regret that we have not proper time to go into the importance of it.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 60 and 61:

[Printed above. ]

Clause 139 [Application of Act to Crown land]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 62: Leave out clause 139 and insert the following new clause:

("Application of Act to Crown land.

139.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, nothing in this Act shall apply in relation to any land belonging to Her Majesty in right of the Crown or otherwise, or belonging to a government department, or held in trust for Her Majesty for the purposes of a government department.

(2) The appropriate Crown authority in relation to any land and a roads authority may agree that any provisions of this Act specified in the agreement shall apply to that land and. while the agreement is in force, those provisions shall apply to the land accordingly, subject however to the terms of the agreement.

(3) An agreement under subsection (2) above may contain such consequential and incidental provisions, including provisions of a financial character, as appear to the appropriate Crown authority to be necessary or equitable, but the approval of the Treasury shall be required in so far as those provisions are of a financial character in an agreement which relates to land referred to in subsection (4)(b) below.

(4) In the foregoing provisions of this section "the appropriate Crown authority" means—

1. (a) in relation to land belonging to Her Majesty in right of the Crown or otherwise, the Crown Estate Commissioners or such other government department or other person as has the management of the land in question; and
2. (b) in relation to land belonging to a government department or held in trust for Her Majesty for the purposes of a government department, that department;

and if any question arises as to what authority is the appropriate Crown authority in relation to any land, that question shall be referred to the Treasury, whose decision shall be final.").

The noble and learned Lord said: This clause has been revised somewhat to accord with Her Majesty's wish that the Bill should not apply automatically to Her Majesty's private estates, although, as with Crown lands, provision should be included to enable agreement to be made for application of any of the Bill's provisions to those estates. The effect of the clause otherwise remains unchanged. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, this too is an important clause, if you go to subsection (4)(b) it says: in relation to land belonging to a government department". That is important as to how you decide which land is related to a Government department. I remember that quite recently there was a case in respect of the sale of land and properties at Hamilton—Hamilton College—and that one of the devices which was used by some people to apologise on behalf of the Scottish Office for what happened was, "Oh, but it is not Crown land; it belongs to a college". But it was a Government department which had bought the land and which had put up the buildings, and in respect of which the troubles arose.

This, too, is a clause on which we could have spent a little more time, but it is certainly better than it was. I think we have got to take the necessary action in respect of the different kinds of Crown land, whether it be in relation to Her Majesty's private estates or in relation to Crown land held by the Crown Estates Commissioners, or in relation to a Government department, which is also Crown land. Much as I should have liked to expand my thoughts on this subject, I am certainly prepared, even with this cursory examination of it, to accept the amendment.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, may I ask whether this includes the Duchy of Cornwall, for instance, which I gather does not belong to Her Majesty?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, so far as I understand the question this does not arise in relation to this matter.

Clause 144 [Interpretation]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 63:

[Printed earlier: col. 422. ]

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment earlier. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 64 and 65: Page 91, line 24, leave out ("section 25(1)") and insert ("subsection (1) of section 25") line 27, leave out ("cleansing") and insert ("such cleansing as an islands or district council are required by sub-sections (1) and (3) of that section to undertake").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to take Amendments Nos. 64 and 65 together.

These are drafting amendments. Amendment No. 65 extends the definition of "maintenance" to include the power to the appropriate roads authority to cleanse special roads and trunk roads which, as regards cleansing, are not provided for under the Local Government and Planning (Scotland) Act 1982. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, we are taking these together, so I will put just one very quick question. If your Lordships look at line 26 your Lordships will see the words: restriction of powers of local authorities as regards street cleansing". I hope we are going to get rid of the word "street". We cannot have Scottish legislation tainted with the word "street"! We have gone to so much trouble to remove it from the Bill, stemming from the Acts of 1839. Here we have the word which does all the damage daring to creep into the legislation. Will the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate give a pledge that he will look at this to see if he can "cleanse" this particular phrase and get rid of this rather dirty word "street"?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, "cleanse" is appropriate in this situation, I suppose. This is a sidenote to the provision, and it is intended to be helpful by way of reference. Certainly I will look at what the noble Lord has said.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, everyone understands it, but we spent pages and pages of Schedule 8 getting rid of the word "street", which everyone understands and which it would be helpful to leave. And we have not even had a proper opportunity to look at this tonight.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 66:

Page 91, line 32, at end insert— (" "obstruction") includes obstruction of view;").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Selkirk helpfully drew attention in Committee to the importance of preventing obstruc-tion of view for traffic. Clause 80 provides for that, but only at corners, bends and junctions. In the interests of road safety it is desirable to enable clear views to be ensured where necessary in other circumstances. The amendment seeks to achieve this by providing that any reference in the Bill to an obstruction includes— and, of course, that depends on the circumstances— obstruction of view. I beg to move.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, I should like to thank my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate very much for this. I think this is an extremely good amendment. Whether it was intended to be covered elsewhere I do not know, but it now makes it quite clear that the word "obstruction" is not necessarily physical; it can also be visual. I believe it is of quite far-reaching importance, and I am very grateful to my noble and learned friend.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, this could include the obstruction of view by smoke from stubble burning. I have had to hold back my noble friend Lord John-Mackie from making a speech on this. But as long as we understand that that is included, I shall be quite pleased.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, with the leave of my noble friend, straw burning is an ad hoc operation, not necessarily a permanent obstruction. It would be difficult to include straw burning. I think that the noble Lord would be better not to push the straw burning and leave it to the noble Lord, Lord Alport's Bill which will deal with it better than this can.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I shall resist the temptation to intervene between the noble Lords opposite.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 67:

Page 93, line 37, after ("than") insert ("a").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is a simple drafting amendment. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 68:

Page 94, line 14, leave out subsections (4) to (7).

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, if I may, with leave I will take Amendments Nos. 68 and 69 together. Amendment No. 69: After Clause 144, insert the following new clause:

(" Further provision as to interpretation and certain ancillary powers.

.—(1) A power conferred on a roads authority by, under or by virtue of this Act to provide, erect, construct, lay or plant includes a power to alter, remove, re-lay, or, as the case may be, re-plant; and in relation to the power conferred by section 24 of this Act also includes the power temporarily to close:

Provided that the foregoing provisions of this subsection shall not apply where the context otherwise requires or where or in so far as such application would result in overlap with, or would admit avoidance of, express provisions of this Act.

(2) The power conferred on a roads authority by section 1(1) or 2(1) of this Act to determine the means of exercise of a public right of passage includes the power to redetermine by order under this subsection such means of exercise.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) of section 69 of this Act shall apply in relation to an order under subsection (2) above as they apply to an order under section 66 or 67 of this Act.

(4) A local roads authority shall have power to carry out any works necessary for giving effect to an order by them under subsection (2) above; and in so far as the carrying out of any such works, or any change in the use of land resulting from any such order, constitutes development within the meaning of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972, permission for that development shall be deemed granted under Part III of that Act.").

These are complementary amendments. Their effect is to take out Clause 144 and transfer to a separate clause provisions relating to certain powers of roads authorities. The noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, pointed out to us at Committee stage that he regarded it as inappropriate to have these powers in the interpretation clause. Having heard what he said, I feel that he is absolutely correct about this and we have therefore given effect to that point by these amendments. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 69:

[Printed above. ]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved amendment No. 70:

[Printed earlier: col. 446. ]

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this with Amendment No. 56. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 71:

[Printed earlier: col. 433. ]

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 25. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 72:

[Printed earlier: col. 439. ]

Schedule 8 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 73:

Page 114, line 9, at end insert—

("The Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865 (c. 56)

.—(1) The Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 2 (interpretation), at the end there shall be added the following definition—

"Road" shall mean and include any way, other than—

1. (a) a waterway; or
2. (b) without prejudice to section 97(c) (damage to roads by fire) or 121(3) (camping in a road) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984, a road within the meaning of that Act.".
3. (3) In section 3 (offences), the words "private", where it occurs for the second time, and ", or on or near any highway." shall cease to have effect.").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, with your Lordships' leave, I should like to speak also to Amendments Nos. 74 to 102 en bloc. Amendment No. 74: Page 114, line 33, at end insert—

("The Entail Amendment (Scotland) Act 1875 (c. 61)

. In section 3 of the Entail Amendment (Scotland) Act 1875 (interpretation), in paragraph 5 of the definition of "Improvements"—

1. (a) for the words "private roads" there shall be substituted the words "roads (other than roads within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)"; and
2. (b) for the words "roads or streets" there shall be substituted the words "private roads (within the meaning of the said Act of 1984)".

The Settled Land Act 1882 (c. 38)

. In section 25 of the Settled I and Act 1882 (description of authorised improvements)—

1. (a) in paragraph (viii) for the words "private roads; roads or streets" there shall be substituted the words "roads (other than roads within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984); private roads (within the meaning of the said Act of 1984)"; and
2. (b) in paragraph (xvii), the word "streets" shall cease to have effect."

The Electric Lighting Act 1882 (c. 56)

.—(1) The Electric Lighting Act 1882 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 12 (incorporation of certain provisions), after the words "North of Scotland District" there shall be added the words "and as if 'street' meant 'road' as defined in this Act.".

(3) In section 13 (restriction on breaking up private roads etc.)—

1. (a) for the words "street which is not repairable by the inhabitants at large" there shall be substituted the words "road which is not a public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)"; and
2. (b) for the word "street", where it occurs for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(4) In section 14 (restrictions as to above-ground works—

1. (a) for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) for the word "local", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(5) In section 15 (power of undertakers to alter position of pipes and wires), for the word "street" wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(6) In section 32 (interpretation), for the definition of "street" there shall be substitued the following definitions— The expression "road" means any way (other than a substitute road made under section 71 (1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 or a waterway) within the area in which the undertakers are authorised to supply electricity by this Act or by any licence, order, or special Act, whether or not there is over that way a public right of passage and whether or not it is for the time being formed as a way; and the expression includes a square or court, and any part of a road; and The expression "roads authority" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.". (7) In section 36 (application of Act to Scotland), the definition of "local authority" shall cease to have effect."). Amendment No. 75: Page 115, line 10, at end insert—

("The Military Lands Act 1892 (c. 43)

.—(1) The Military Lands Act 1892 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) For section 13 (power to stop or divert footpaths) there shall be substituted the following section— 13. In relation to a footpath crossing or near to land leased under this Act. the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 shall have effect as if in subsection one of section sixty six thereof (power of roads authorities to stop up roads by order) there were added to the grounds for stopping up a road the ground that the road crosses or runs inconveniently or dangerously near to such land. In this section "footpath" has the same meaning as in the said Act of 1984.".

(3) In section 25 (application to Scotland)—

1. (a) subsection (7) shall cease to have effect; and
2. (b) at the end there shall be added the following subsection—

(10) In section 16 of this Act—

1. (a) for the references to "highway" there shall be substituted references to "road"; and
2. (b) after the word "footpath" in subsection (2) there shall be inserted the words "within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984".")

Amendment No. 76: Page 115, line 37, at end insert—

("The Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act 1899 (c. 19)

.—(1) The Schedule to the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act 1899 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 1 (interpretation)—

1. (a) after the definition of "railway" there shall be inserted the following definitions—
• "The expression 'road'" has the same meaning as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950 except that the expression 'public road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984:
• The expression 'roads authority' has the same meaning as in the said Act of 1984:"; and
2. (b) in the definition of 'tramway', for the word 'street' there shall be substituted the word 'road'.

(3) In section 11 (additional provisions as to works), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(4) In section 12 (powers for execution of works)—

1. (a) for the words "street or part of a street not repairable by the inhabitants at large" there shall be substituted the words "road which is not a public road";
2. (b) for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
3. (c) for the word "street", where it last occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 13(1) (street boxes) for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(6) In section 14 (service of notice of works etc.)—

1. (a) in subsection (1)—
1. (i) at the beginning there shall be inserted the words "subject to subsection (2) below,";
2. (ii) for the words "street or public bridge" there shall be substituted the words "road, or any bridge comprised in a road and over which there is a public right of passage,"; and
3. (iii) in paragraph (a), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) for subsection (2) there shall be substituted the following subsections—

(2) Where the road (or bridge) in, under, along or across which the works are to be placed is a public road, subsection (1) above shall apply with the substitution for any reference to a local authority of a reference to the roads authority; except that where the roads authority is the Secretary of State—

1. (a) paragraph (c) of that subsection shall not apply in relation to amendments or conditions imposed by him or to disapproval by him; and
2. (b) paragraph (e) of that subsection shall apply as if the words "or by the Secretary of State" were omitted.

(3) Subject to subsection (2) above, in subsection (1) above "local authority" means the regional or islands council".

(7) In section 15 (exercise of powers of undertakers in relation to private streets, railways, tramways and canals)—

1. (a) for the words "street or part of a street not repairable by the local authority, including, where the area of supply is not wholly in a county borough, the county council" there shall be substituted the words "road which is not a public road";
2. (b) in paragraph (a), for the words "street or part of a street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
3. (c) in paragraph (d), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(8) In section 16 (notice of desire to break up streets, etc. on behalf of undertakers)—

1. (a) for the words "street or part of a street", in both places where they occur, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(9) In section 17 (alteration of wires, pipes, etc. under streets), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(10) In section 21 (laying of mains etc.)—

1. (a) in subsection (2), for the words "street or part of a street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) in subsection (3)—
1. (i) for the words "street not repairable by the local authority" there shall be substituted the words "road which is not a public road and"; and
2. (ii) for the word "street", where it occurs for the second and third times, there shall in each case be substituted the word "road".

(11) In section 22 (laying of electric line under special agreement)—

1. (a) for the words "local authority", where they first occur, there shall be substituted the words "roads authority (or, in the case of a road which is not a road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984, the regional or islands council)";
2. (b) for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
3. (c) for the words "local authority", where they occur for the second time, there shall be substituted the words "roads authority or council (as the case may be)".

(12) In section 24 (manner in which requisition is to be made)—

1. (a) in subsection (1)—
1. (i) for the words "street or part of a street", wherever they occur, there shall be substituted the word "road";
2. (ii) for the words "the local authority have the control and management of the public lamps" there shall be substituted the words "a roads authority maintain under section 34 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 the lighting"; and
3. (iii) for the word "local", where it occurs for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in each of subsections (2) and (3), for the word "local" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(13) In section 26 (provisions on requisition by local authority)—

1. (a) for the word "local," in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) for the words from "lighting" to the end there shall be substituted the words "lighting maintained by them in the road in respect of which the requisition is made".

(14) In section 77 (responsibility of undertakers for damages), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(15) In the Appendix, in the words setting out section 12 of the Electric Lighting Act 1882, after the words "North of Scotland District" there shall be added the words "and as if 'street' meant 'road' as defined in this Act.".").

Amendment No. 77: Page 116, line 18, at end insert—

("The Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act 1916 (c. 63)

. In section 15 of the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act 1916 (application to Scotland), at the end there shall be added the following paragraph— (d) for references to "highway" and "street" there shall be substituted references to a road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.

The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 (c. 100)

. In section 22 of the Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 (way-leaves)—

1. (a) in subsection (2)(g), for the word "streets", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in subsection (4), for the words "street or public bridge" there shall be substituted the words "road, or any bridge comprised in a road and over which there is a public right of passage".").

Amendment No. 78: Page 116, line 41, at end insert—

(" ( ) In section 119(3) (power of local highway authority to borrow for purposes related to running public service vehicles)—

1. (a) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads";
2. (b) the words "for the purpose of the payment of the consideration for a transfer under section fifty-three of this Act or" shall cease to have effect; and
3. (c) at the end there shall be added the words "of this Act".").

Amendment No. 79: Page 117, line 46, at end insert—

("The Public Order Act 1936 (c. 6)

. In section 9(1) of the Public Order Act 1936 (interpretation), in the definition of "public place", after the word "highway" there shall be inserted the words ", or in Scotland any road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,".").

Amendment No. 80: Page 118, line 9, at end insert—

("The Requisitioned Land and War Works Act 1945 (c. 43)

. —(1) The Requisitioned Land and War Works Act 1945 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 15(2)(c) (stopping up or diversion of roads), for the words, "Trunk Roads Act, 1936" there shall be substituted the words "provisions of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 relating to trunk roads".

(3) In section 60(3) (application to Scotland), after the word "Gazette;", in the second place where it occurs, there shall be substituted a reference to a road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".

The Fire Services Act 1947 (c. 41)

.—(1) The Fire Services Act 1947 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 3 (supplementary powers of fire authorities)—

1. (a) in subsection (l)(c), for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) in subsection (2), for the words from "trunk road" to the end of paragraph (a) there shall be substituted the words "public road a fire authority shall (where they are not themselves the roads authority) obtain the consent of the roads authority; and—
• (a) without prejudice to the foregoing provisions of this subsection, the said powers shall not be exercised in a district except after consultation with the council of the district,".

(3) In section 14(3)(a) (marking of positions of fire hydrants), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(4) In section 30(5) (powers of firemen and police in extinguish- ing fires), for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 38(1) (interpretation), for the definition of "street" there shall be submitted the following definitions— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950; and 'roads authority' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".")

Amendment No. 81: Page 118, line 16, at end insert—

("The Electricity Act 1947 (c. 54)

.—(1) The Electricity Act 1947 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) in section 9(3) (application of certain provisions of the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act 1899), for the words "street or public bridge" there shall be substituted the words "road, or any bridge comprised in a road and over which there is a public right of passage".

(3) In section 50(3) (exercise of powers relating to breaking up streets, etc.), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".").

Amendment No. 82: Page 132, line 46, leave out second ("of) and insert ("or").

Amendment No. 83: Page 133, line 15, at end insert—

("The Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (c. 14)

. In section 1(4) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (inter-pretation) after the word "highway" there shall be inserted the words ", or in Scotland any road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,".").

Amendment No. 84: Page 133, line 40, at end insert—

("The Land Powers (Defence) Act 1958 (c. 30)

. In section 9(4) of the Land Powers (Defence) Act 1958 (supplementary provisions with respect to stopping up and diversion of highways), for the words from the beginning to "right of way", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the words—

"(4) In section 8 of this Act and this section, in their applica-tion to Scotland, "highway" means a road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984: ").

Amendment No. 85: Page 134, line 25, at end insert—

("The Manoeuvres Act 1958 (7 & 8 Eliz. 2. c. 7)

.—(1) The Manoeuvres Act 1958 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 3 (powers to close roads)—

1. (a) in subsection (1), for the words "Special Roads Act, 1949" there shall be substituted the words "Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
2. (b) subsection (5)(a) shall cease to have effect.

(3) In section 9 (interpretation), after the definition of "authorised forces" there shall be inserted the following definition—

• " "highway", in relation to Scotland, means a road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984; "").

Amendment No. 86: Page 134, line 47, at end insert—

("The Road Traffic Act 1960 (c. 16)

. In section 257(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1960 (general interpretation), for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definition—

" 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".").

Amendment No. 87: Page 135, line 6, at end insert—

("The Pipe-lines Act 1962 (c. 58)

.—(1) The Pipe-lines Act 1962 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 15 (power to place pipe-lines in streets)—

1. (a) in subsections (1) to (9), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substitued the word "road":
2. (b) in subsection (4) in each of paragraphs (c) and (d), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "road over which there is a public right of passage";
3. (c) in subsection (7), for the words from "shall be determined" to the end there shall be substituted the words "shall be referred to the arbitration of a single arbiter appointed by agreement between the parties concerned or, in default of agreement, by the sheriff; and in any such arbitration the arbiter may, and, if so directed by the Court of Session, shall, state a case for the decision of that court on any question of law arising in the arbitration."; and
4. (d) for subsections (10) and (11) there shall be substituted the following subsection—

"(10) In this section, except where the context otherwise requires— appropriate authority", in relation to a road, means—

1. (a) where the road is a public road, the roads authority;
2. (b) where the road is a prospective public road, the roads authority and the road managers;
3. (c) where the road is neither a public road nor a prospective public road, the road managers;

carriageway" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984; prospective public road" shall be construed in accordance with section l(4)(b) of the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950; protected road" means—

1. (a) a special road;
2. (b) a trunk road; or
3. (c) such other road as is for the time being classified by the Secetary of State under section

11 (1) of the said Act of 1984 as a protected road for the purposes of this Act;

"public road" has the same meaning as in the said Act of 1984;

"road" and "road managers" have the same meanings as in the said Act of 1950; and

"roads authority", "special road" and"trunk road" have the same meaning as in the said Act of 1984.".

(3) In section 16 (modification of street works code in applica- tion to pipe-line works)—

(a) in subsection (1)—

1. (i) for the word "street", where it occurs for the first and fourth times, there shall in each case be substituted the word "roads";
2. (ii) for the words "street which is a maintainable highway or is prospectively a maintainable highway" there shall be substituted the words "road which is a public road or prospective public road";
3. (iii) for the word "street", where it occurs for the third time, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
4. (iv) for the word "arbitrator" there shall be substituted the word "arbiter"; and

(b) in subsection (2)(b), for the word "arbitrator" there shall be substituted the word "arbiter".

(4) In section 66(1) (interpretation), in the definition of "in" for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Amendment No. 88: Page 135, line 39, at beginning insert—

(" .—(1) The Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 46 (protection and maintenance of public rights of way)—

1. (a) in subsection (2), for the words "footpath at the side of a road" there shall be substituted the word "footway"; and
2. (b) in subsection (3), after the words "than a" there shall be inserted the word "public".

(3) In section 47 (interpretation), at the end there shall be added the following definition— ; and 'public road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.". (4) ").

Amendment No. 89: Page 135, line 39, leave out ("of the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967").

Amendment No. 90: Page 136, line 12, at end insert—

("(5) In section 78(1) (interpretation)—

1. (a) after the definition of "enactment" there shall be inserted the following definition—
• " 'footway' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; and
2. (b) for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definition—
• " 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;";").

Amendment No. 91: Page 138, line 31, at end insert—

("The Countryside Act 1968 (c. 41)

. In section 32 of the Countryside Act 1968 (traffic regulation orders for the countryside)—

1. (a) in subsection (8), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads";
2. (b) in subsection (10)—
1. (i) in the definition of "Crown road", for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "public road";and
2. (ii) for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definitions—
• " 'road', 'public road' and 'trunk road' have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".").

Amendment No. 92: Page 139, line 16, at end insert—

("The Caravan Sites Act 1968 (c. 52)

. In section 13(1) of the Caravan Sites Act 1968 (twin-unit caravans} for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Amendment No. 93: Page 142, line 13, at end insert—

("The Road Traffic Act 1972 (c. 20)

.—(1) The Road Traffic Act 1972 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 14 (motor racing on highways) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 15(1) (regulation of motoring events on highways), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(4) In section 20 (regulation of cycle racing on highways), in each of subsections (1), (2) and (5), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 34 (requirements as to employment of persons to attend to locomotives and trailers), in each of subsections (1) and (2), for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(6) In each of sections 36A(4) and 36B(8) (interpretation), for the words "1970" there shall be substituted the words "1984".

(7) In section 38(2A)(b) (duty of local authorities to promote road safety), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(8) In section 57(7) (power to prohibit driving of excessively heavy goods vehicle), for the words "highway authority other than the Secretary of State" there shall be substituted the words "local roads authority".

(9) In section 160 (weighing of motor vehicles)—

1. (a) in subsection (1), for the word "highway", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads";
2. (b) in subsection (2)—
1. (i) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (ii) for the word "arbitrator" there shall be substituted the word "arbiter"; and
3. (c) in subsection (4)—
1. (i) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (ii) the words "the Lord Chief Justice of England or, as the case may be," shall cease to have effect.

(10) In section 196 (general interpretation)—

1. (a) after the definition of "bridleway" there shall be inserted the following definition—
• " 'carriageway' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;";
2. (b) in the definition of "footpath", at the end there shall be added the words—
• "(whether or not associated with a carriageway)";
3. (c) for the definition of "highway authority" there shall be substituted the following definition—
• " 'local roads authority' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;";
4. (d) after the definition of "prescribed" there shall be inserted the following definition—
• " 'public road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;";
5. (e) for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definitions—
• " 'road' and 'special road' have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; and
6. (f) after the definition of "trolley vehicle" there shall be inserted the following definition—
• " 'trunk road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".

(11) In section 200 (provision, etc., of weighbridges), for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(12) In Schedule 4 (prosecution and punishment of offences), in column 2, in the entries relating to sections 14, 15 and 20, for the word "highways" there shall in each case be substituted the word "roads".").

Amendment No 94: Page 147, line 2, at end insert—

("The Gas Act 1972 (c. 60)

.—(1) The Gas Act 1972 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 39(2) (application of Pipe-lines Act 1962), for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In Schedule 4 (gas supply code)—

1. (a) in paragraph 1—
1. (i) in sub-paragraph (1), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road";
459
2. (ii) in sub-paragraph (2), for the word "street", where it occurs for the first, third and fourth times, there shall be substituted the word "road", and for the words from "highway" to "of the street" there shall be substituted the words "roads authority or road managers";
3. (iii) in the proviso to sub-paragraph (3), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road";
4. (iv) in sub-paragraph (4), for the words from "street" to "the public expense" there shall be substituted the words "road or bridge which does not constitute a road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984", and the words "In the application" to "1970" shall cease to have effect;
5. (v) in sub-paragraph (5), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
6. (vi) in sub-paragraph (6), for the words from "15" to "mains" there shall be substituted the words "125 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 (restriction on laying of apparatus"; and
2. (b) in paragraph 36, for the definition of "street" there shall be substituted the following definitions—
• " "road", "roads authority" and "road managers" have the same meanings as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950.".").

Amendment No. 95: Page 147, line 24, at end insert—

(" (8) In section 77(4), for the words "69 and 70(2)" there shall be substituted the words "and 69".

(9) In section 80 (general interpretation)—

(a) in subsection (1)—

1. (i) there shall be inserted in the appropriate places in alphabetical order the following definitions—
2. "carriageway" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;
3. "local roads authority" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;
4. "roads authority" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984; "; and
5. (ii) for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definition—
6. " "road" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984; "; and

(b) subsection (2) shall cease to have effect.").

Amendment No. 96: Page 149. line 8, at end insert—

("The Safely of Sports Grounds Act 1975 (c. 52)

. In section 17(1) of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, in the definition of "means of access", for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Amendment No. 97: Page 150, line 4, at end insert—

("The Electricity (Scotland) Act 1979 (c. 11)

. In section 12(6) of the Electricity (Scotland) Act 1979 (application of certain provisions in relation to compulsory purchase of land), for the words "street or public bridge" there shall be substituted the words 'road, or any bridge comprised in a road and over which there is a public right of passage, ".").

Amendment No. 98: Page 155. line 10, at beginning insert—

(" .—(1) The Civil Aviation Act 1982 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) ").

Amendment No. 99: Page 155, line 10, leave out ("of the Civil Aviation Act 1982").

Amendment No. 100: Page 155, line 15, at end insert—

("(3) In paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 (application to Civil Aviation Authority of enactments relating to statutory undertakers)—

1. (a) the words "section 39 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970" shall cease to have effect; and
2. (b) at the end there shall be added the words "; section 133 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".").

Amendment No. 101: Page 155, line 21, leave out ("inserted") and insert ("substituted").

Amendment No. 102: Page 156, line 42, at end insert—

("The Litter Act 1983 (c. 35)

. In section 7(1) of the Litter Act 1983 (litter bins in Scotland), for paragraph (a) there shall be substituted the following paragraph— "(a) in or adjacent to any road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984) maintainable or maintained by a local authority,".

The Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1984 (c. )

. In section 2(3) of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1984, after the word "highway" there shall be inserted the words ", or in Scotland any road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984,".")

These amendments make consequential amend-ments to a number of statutes in conformity with the new arrangements and structure povided by the Bill. I sought to explain earlier that this is the most practical way of achieving consistency of structure between this codifying measure and other enactments. I beg to move.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, I take it that the first one would be paragraph 5 of Schedule 8. 1 wondered why "5" is not included or "5(a)"' I imagine it should be included in that position.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, that is my understanding, that it will go in that place and the appropriate numbering will go in.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 74 to 102:

[Printed above: cols. 452–460. ]

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Murton of Lindisfarne)

My Lords, with the agreement of the House, I put Amendments Nos. 74 to 102 en bloc. The Question is that these amendments be agreed to.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, I should draw attention to Amendment No. 74 where we have the words: street which is not repairable by the inhabitants at large"— substituted by the words— road which is not a public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984). Then if we go to page 14 of the Marshalled List—there are 18 pages of amendments to this schedule which we clearly ought to examine carefully—in relation to the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act 1899, we find it says: 'street or part of a street not repairable by the inhabitants at large' there shall be substituted the words 'road which is not a public road'. Why is there the difference in the definition there? There should be consistency in something as misleading and confusing as all this.

Lord Airedale

My Lords, I wonder whether we are going to get ourselves into the Guinness Book of Records for the largest number of amendments that have ever been taken en bloc.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot answer that question. These amendments would be described by many of my colleagues. I think, as drafting amendments in the ordinary situation. Whether it helps to repeat that for the number of times that it would be necessary I am not certain.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, with all due respect, they are not drafting amendments. These are not in the original Bill. They were not there at Committee stage; were not put in at Committee stage or promised at Committee stage. They were completely new arising from the examination of legislation; and. as I have said, they will not be the end. There are 18 pages of these amendments. This increases the size of the schedule which when first we saw it consisted (I think) of 25 pages. By the time this is finished, it will consist of 46 plus 18, which is 64.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would add that so far as the question of the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, is concerned, the two passages to which he drew attention are perfectly consistent because they are related to the context in which the word appears. One has to take account of context in making these amendments.

Schedule 10 [Repeals]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 103 to 117:

Page 158, line 16, at end insert—

("28 & 29 Vict. c. 56.	The Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865.	In section 3, the words "pri- vate", where it occurs for the second time, and ", or on or near any highway.".")
line 18, at end insert—
("45 & 46 Vict. c. 38	The Settled Land Act 1882	In section 25 (xvii), the word "Streets".
45 & 46 Vict. c. 56.	the Electric Lighting Act 1882.	In section 36, the definition of "local authority".")
line 26, at end insert—
("55 & 56 Viet. c. 43.	The Military Lands Act 1892.	Section 25(7).")
line 35, at end insert—
("9 Edw. 7 c. 34.	The Electric Lighting Act 1909.	In section 25, the definition of "road".")
line 38, at end insert—
("9&10 Geo. 5 c. 50.	The Ministry of Transport Act 1919.	Schedule 2. ").
line 49, after ("words") insert ("for the purpose of the payment of the consideration").
Page 159, line 50, at end insert—
("7 & 8 Eliz. 2 c. 7.	The Manoeuvres Act 1958.	Section 3(5)(a),").
Page 160, line 6, at end insert—
("1965 c. 36	The Gas Act 1965.	In Schedule 1, paragraphs 7(3) (c)and 12(l)(c).")
column 3, leave out lines 10 and 11 and insert ("and "local high way authority".")
line 40, at end insert—
("1972 c. 20.	The Road Traffic Act 1972.	Section 13(b). Section 19(2)(b). In section 160(4), the words "the Lord Chief Justice of England or. as the case may be,".).

Page 161, line 33, at end insert—

("1972 c. 60.	The Gas Act 1972.	In Schedule 4, in paragraph 1(4), the words from "In the application" to "1970".")
line 42, at end insert—
("1973 c. 65.	The Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973	In Schedule 14, paragraphs 1 to 30, 31(b), 32 to 41, 43 to 50, 51(a) and (b), 52 to 54, 57, 58, 74, 76 to 79, 87 and 88.")
line 45, column 3, at end insert—
		("In section 62(1), the words from "In this subsection" to "public". Section 106(4).")
line 45, at end insert—
("1975 c. 21.	The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975.	In Schedule 7D, paragraphs 1 and 47.").
Page 162, line 15, at end insert—
("1982 c. 16.	The Civil Aviation Act 1982.	In paragraph 4 of Schedule 2, the words "section 39 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970;".").

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 103 to 117 make0020minor repeals arising from this Bill. I beg to move these amendments en bloc.

House adjourned at twenty-three minutes past ten o'clock.