§ 3.33 p.m.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the ballistic missile defence system now proposed by the United States would breach the ABM Treaty of 1972 between the Soviet Union and the United States; whether they have been consulted by the United States Government on this matter; and what is their knowledge of American intentions.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)My Lords, the United States are conducting long-term research into defences against ballistic missiles. This is permitted under the ABM Treaty, to which the United States Administration has expressed its continuing commitment. The Americans are consulting us closely.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that Answer, but would she not agree that Article 5 of the treaty provides that each party undertakes not to develop, test or deploy ABM systems or components which are air based, sea based, space based, or mobile land based? Is she entirely satisfied that the Americans are not breaching this article in the treaty?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, the United States programme is limited to research. The Soviet Union already has a long-established programme of research in this field, and neither party to the treaty has signalled any intention of abrogating it.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that most thinking people are very happy to see the development of defensive measures against missile attack and that one would expect this, particularly in the case of those who are very much concerned about nuclear holocausts?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question.
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that rapid progress is now being made by both the Russians and the Americans in anti-ballistic missile technology? At what point will this advance lead the Government to reconsider their support for the Trident project?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, there is no reason to alter our strong commitment to the independent strategic deterrent. The United States is well aware of the importance that we attach to our own independent deterrent.
§ Lord KennetMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that rather than conduct research into how to break a treaty, the super powers would be better advised to meet and discuss another treaty which would bind them not to conduct research into how to 1372 break an existing treaty? Can the Government give us any news about what pressure they are bringing to bear on the United States and the Soviet Union to resume disarmament negotations?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, at the conference on disarmament in Geneva we are actively seeking agreement for the setting up of a working group to examine all the issues involved in arms control in outer space, including treaty arrangements.
§ Lord BishopstonMy Lords, will the noble Baroness the Minister say what form the consultations between ourselves and the United States take? Is it really a matter of being told what they have in mind, rather than having earlier consultation? Also, though one recognises the importance of adequate defence, are there other treaties which may be breached, such as the non-proliferation treaty and other agreements of that kind?
§ Baroness YoungMy Lords, in answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Bishopston, we are happy with the way the consultations are going, and the issues involved are being fully discussed. I think he will recognise from the Answer that I gave to the original Question that we do not accept that the treaty is being abrogated.