HL Deb 20 March 1984 vol 449 cc1105-7

2.51 p.m.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will propose to the NATO council that an investigation be conducted into the manner in which NATO ammunition got into the hands of terrorist "contras" in Nicaragua.

Baroness Young

My Lords, No. I would remind the noble Lord that there is no such thing as NATO ammunition per se. Boxes of ammunition may bear a NATO identification number. This indicates only that the munitions correspond to agreed NATO standards.

Lord Avebury

But, my Lords, is the Minister aware that every day on the border of Nicaragua there are armed incursions from the neighbouring countries which are financed, trained and armed by the CIA? Is the Minister further aware that the terrorists are attacking from the air as well by helicopter and plane and that recently they have been laying mines in Nicaraguan ports, and that this is part of a sustained attempt to undermine the legitimate Government of Nicaragua in which NATO ammunition is being used? Is the noble Baroness aware that when Nicaraguan armed forces were in action against these terrorists they found that ammunition was being used carrying the symbol which the noble Baroness mentioned? Does she not think that since NATO is meant to defend the West, the free world, it is highly improper and wrong for such ammunition to be used to undermine a friendly government?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I do not believe that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, fully understood the Answer that I gave to his original Question. There is in fact no such thing as NATO ammunition per se. To repeat this allegation, as he did in his supplementary question, confuses rather than elucidates the matter. In fact, the NATO identification number indicates only that the munitions correspond to agreed NATO standards.

Lord Bishopston

My Lords, does the noble Lord's Question not emphasise the importance of strict control of ammunition, or weapons, in NATO countries regarding the export, transport, and particularly the monitoring of such weapons to see that they do not fall into the wrong hands?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the whole control of weapons in NATO is of course another question, and I should be happy to try to answer on that subject if the noble Lord cares to put such a Question down. The whole point about the answer to this Question is that there is no such thing as NATO ammunition per se.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, would the Government consider a plan not to stamp ammunition cases with the letters "NATO" as an indication that they meet NATO standards, in view of the fact that it is obviously inevitable that simple people in a country many thousands of miles away from NATO will take it that NATO means NATO in origin and NATO in use?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I shall draw to the attention of my right honourable friend the point that the noble Lord has made.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, would the noble Minister agree that, in view of the seriousness of the problem of international terrorism, the use of the word "terrorist" to describe a movement in this case of, so far as I can make out, open rebellion is pejorative and does not conduce to enlightenment?

Baroness Young

My Lords, as I would expect from my noble friend, he has drawn our attention to an interesting point.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, would the noble Baroness agree that her noble friend is quite wrong in this, and agree that the forces which are invading Nicaragua are armed by the United States, which accounts for the ammunition which has given rise to the Question?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I do not believe that I should be drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, down the path of answering questions about the general situation in Central America.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, does not the fact that the ammunition conforms to NATO standards indicate that it will have been manufactured in a NATO country? If not, could the noble Baroness say in what other countries apart from those which belong to NATO such ammunition is manufactured? If it is manufactured in a NATO country, does she not think that an inquiry into the manner in which it reached the hands of these terrorists is justified?

Baroness Young

My Lords, two examples of manufacturers of such ammunition are Australia and India. Neither is a member of NATO.