HL Deb 19 March 1984 vol 449 cc969-71
Lord Airedale

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the earliest date on which any document pertaining to sovereignty over the Falkland Islands and in possession of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on 27th February 1984 was temporarily returned to them from the Public Record Office under Section 4(6) of the Public Records Act 1958.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, details of movement of records are kept in a form which does not directly relate their identification numbers to subject matter, and to do this it is necessary to refer to numerous indexes and registers, some of which are held by the Public Record Office. Because the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has no operational need for the information which the noble Lord requires, I could not justify the administrative effort that would be involved. There may at any one time be 1,000 records temporarily in the possession of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, but such records are returned to the Public Record Office when they are no longer required.

Lord Airedale

My Lords, I had hoped that the Answer to this question could only be a date in the calendar. Can the Government not even guess approximately the date involved, because until the date is forthcoming I do not think that I can proceed to a supplementary question?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am afraid not without disproportionate effort.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his answer was precise but that it confused me even more than the previous Answer? Of the batch of papers originally taken, some have been returned to the Public Record Office and some have been retained. Can he say generally which were returned and what is the nature of those that have been retained? Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on 28th February, said that the papers that were still being held by the Foreign Office would be sent back in accordance with the normal procedure. Will the noble Lord indicate to the House what is the normal procedure in circumstances of this kind? Can he say when the remainder of the papers will be returned?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the normal procedure is that the documents should be returned when the work on them has been completed and they are no longer required. The noble Lord should be aware that there is a constant flow of documents in both directions, from the PRO to the Foreign Office and back. It is therefore not possible to refer to them as a batch as the noble Lord did in the opening part of his supplementary question.

Lord Wigoder

My Lords, can the noble Lord suggest any question on this topic that permits of a straightforward answer?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, all the answers that we give to these questions are as straightforward as we can make them.

Lord Mishcon

My Lords, will the Minister, reflecting upon the answers that were given last time to the questions that were raised, appreciate that there is anxiety in the House and generally that we are not hiding documents because we are ashamed of their contents or because we think that their contents might give arguments to those who are opposed to us on the title to the land in question? Will the Minister therefore be more frank with the House and say whether there is any justification for that thought? If there is not justification for it, could not the documents be returned rather expeditiously to remove the rumour?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that the documents will be returned as soon as work on them has been completed. Indeed, a good number have been returned already. As for the suggestion that the Government have withdrawn these documents because they are in some way embarrassing or inconvenient, I can assure the noble Lord that that is not the case and would not be possible under the Act in question.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, can the noble Lord help us? If some documents have been returned and are finished with, and others are not yet ready to be returned, can he define which have been returned or those which have not been returned?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, lam afraid that I cannot do that. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, this is a continuing process. Documents are continually coming from the PRO and hack again.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, will my noble friend please tell me how many people have been requesting these documents and how many have been refused them? That is the pertinent question. Is he aware that there are many other classes of records, and that documents have to go back to departments where they can be consulted? We are dealing with a narrow area. In respect to the original Question, can my noble friend say how many people have requested the documents, and how many have been refused them?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not aware that anybody has requested to see these documents, but I must confess that the Public Record Office has been closed for a short period recently because of problems with the air conditioning system.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, is it right that these documents are not classified documents? What is the nature of the work that is being done upon them? Cannot the Minister lift that veil for us so that we may know the nature of the work which covers, I agree, a multitude of potential activities?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the documents are being studied by officials in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in order that we may have our minds refreshed as to what they contain.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government are giving the impression of being both defensive and evasive, and of not having a copying machine? In those circumstances will they not change their attitude, because is it not the case that it can be read in the Commons Hansard of some time ago that Mr. Nicholas Ridley was negotiating the sovereignty of the Falklands, and therefore there is really nothing much to hide here?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I agree that there is nothing to hide. The problem about photocopying is that the Foreign Office has something like 5,000 files a year from the Public Record Office, and other Government departments have further quantities of documents, and so the copying task would be enormous.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that Mr. Ridley was not—and I repeat, "not"—negotiating sovereignty, as was suggested from the other side just now?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, with respect, that question goes rather wide of what is on the Order Paper, but of course the Government's position with regard to sovereignty is well known.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the matter can easily be settled by reference to the Commons Hansard?

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