§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their long-term energy strategy given that oil production from the British sector of the North Sea will probably reach its peak within the next couple of years.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)My Lords, the eventual decline in oil production from the United Kingdom continental shelf makes it more important than ever that all economic sources of energy in the United Kingdom are exploited, supplied and used as efficiently as possible. In particular, the Government are seeking, through their policies towards offshore oil development, to maximise future economic production.
§ Lord EzraMy Lords, in thanking the noble Earl for that reply, may I ask him whether he would agree that in the 1990s we could well once again be a net oil importing country, and in the light of that prospective situation we ought to be putting in hand immediately a very detailed study of the prospects and initiating a public debate thereon? Would he therefore tell us whether the Government would propose to do those things?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, indeed we agree, and a public debate is going on at the moment, I believe, at Sizewell on the question of policies in the energy world in the future. We believe it is a crucial sector of the economy; it is essential that it is produced and used as efficiently as possible, and this is what our plans are at the moment.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, in the circumstances that we may discover a loss of that energy which is essential if we are ever to hope for recovery, or even to continue in our present situation, is it not of the utmost importance that we should cease to close down pits, even if some of them are unprofitable and uneconomic, because in the course of a few years we may discover that even uneconomic pits are essential in the circumstances?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will agree, when he looks at the figures, that the pits being closed down are no more now than they have been over the whole of the last three decades; and the only purpose of closing down the pits is to close down the uneconomic pits in order that the coal industry itself should be profitable.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl what is an uneconomic pit? Is he aware—and I am sorry to ask this question, because it is long before the noble Earls time—many years ago, when I first came to another place, way back in 1922, they closed down pits in Lanarkshire, as a result of which a vast number of people were unemployed, only to discover a few years later that they were able to reorganise the pits, and that they are now operating?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am sorry I was not born in 1922. I am even more sorry that when I was born, in 1930, it was not in my home county of Durham. However, if I may answer the noble Lord, the position at the moment is that it is necessary to make our coal marketable. At the moment, internationally, coal is being produced cheaper than we can produce it, and it is necessary to close our uneconomic pits so that we can join the free market in the world.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, as there has been some confusion on television programmes and elsewhere about this, can my noble friend confirm that while the annual rate of flow may reach its maximum during the 1980s, oil is expected to be produced from our continental shelf for at least 40 years provided that there are incentives for developing new fields.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend, and the excitement which is now going on in the North Sea—the new exploration as a result of the tax concessions given, not in this Budget but the one previously—is very encouraging.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is it not true, and will the noble Earl confirm, that we shall in fact begin to lose self-sufficiency in oil towards the middle of the next decade? Under those circumstances, would it not be as well if the Government concentrated on energy saving, on CHP, and, above all, on electric traction, which of course is likely to save a good deal of the oil that is used?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord, as to self-sufficiency, that we may indeed become an importer of oil, rather than an exporter, during the next decade. I would equally agree with him that energy efficiency is a very important theme. I noted it was one of the themes in the Labour Party manifesto, and I am sure they would therefore be delighted at the setting up of the Energy Efficiency Office, which is fulfilling these particular wishes. As far as CHP is concerned, the noble Lord will know that we are hoping to make an announcement in the near future.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that we must also press on with our 725 nuclear power programme, seeing that a tonne of fuel in an ordinary nuclear reactor is worth 25,000 tonnes of coal, and in a fast reactor more than a million?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, indeed the Government are looking at that situation, and it has always been part of our policy to diversify the energy base, which of course includes nuclear power.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, I am sorry to come back to the Dispatch Box, but the noble Earl did not answer my question about the development of electric traction. I should be most interested to learn his view on that.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the Government are indeed looking at electric traction, and I am to make a speech at an event relevant to this in the near future. I am not yet quite sure what I am to say, but I am certain that the noble Lord will be interested in it.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, may I please ask the noble Earl whether he would be prepared to consider the view of very well-known geologists and mining engineers that a pit which today might well be uneconomic to run can be closed without necessarily being dispensed with for ever? It can, so to speak, be "mothballed", bearing in mind that peradventure its contents may be required in years to come. Ought that point not to be seriously considered by the Government with regard to industrial energy processes?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, what the noble Lord says is very much a question for the National Coal Board. I am not an expert on this subject, but my understanding is that if a pit could be "mothballed" it certainly would be. There is no question of trying to get rid of what is available.
§ Lord Blyton; My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is impossible to "mothball" a pit? Once a pit is closed, the geological weight results in the roads being closed, and it would cost more to reopen it than to try to "mothball" it.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, hut I think that this is very much a question for the industry and I should not be drawn into it.