Sporting Links with South Africa (Hansard, 13 March 1984)

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, yes. The Government's policy is entirely founded and consistent with the 1977 Commonwealth Statement on Apartheid in Sport as reaffirmed by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and other Commonwealth leaders at successive Commonwealth Heads of Government meetings, most recently at New Delhi in November last year.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Will he accept that my supplementary question is purely in the spirit of objective inquiry, because the Gleneagles Agreement seems to me to be somewhat ambiguously drafted? Is it in fact the policy of Her Majesty's Government not to encourage sporting links with countries where, as the Gleneagles Agreement says, sports are organised on the basis of race, colour or ethnic origin", or is it the policy of Her Majesty's Government to discourage sporting links with South Africa while the policy of apartheid remains in force there?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the latter.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, can my noble friend make it clear whether he is talking about an agreement or a statement? In his reply he referred to a statement but the Question refers to an agreement. Is it a binding agreement?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the Gleneagles Agreement was a communiqué which was signed and reaffirmed, as I said, by all the Commonwealth Heads of Government.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the noble Lord go a step further and say that Her Majesty's Government unequivocally condemn the proposed tours of South Africa by British Rugby Union teams?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, we have been consistently doing all that we can to point out to the Rugby Football Union that this is totally undesirable and counter-productive to its purposes.

§ Lord Bruce-Gardyne
My Lords, is my noble friend sure that his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, is altogether wise? Is it not at least arguable that if this tour of South Africa took place, and as a result we were drummed out of international sport, we might be saved a great deal of embarrassment from the visitations of the younger members of the English and Scottish populations ripping up the towns of Western Europe whenever we play?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, that is a point of view, but I would consider it distinctly undesirable.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the phrase in the Gleneagles Agreement which calls for: every practical step to discourage contact and competition with teams from any country where sports are organised on the basis of race, colour or ethnic origin", is a direct reference to the whole character and foundation of the system of apartheid?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
Yes, my Lords, most certainly. That was behind my answer to the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the other day one of the leading BBC sports commentators stated that all sport in South Africa is now multi-racial? Does he consider that that is a sign of straws blowing in the wind?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, certainly there has been some easement of the policy of apartheid in sport in South Africa; but since sport is principally founded in schools, which are still segregated, I do not think that I can agree with the point of view which my noble friend has just expressed.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, as an old rugby player may I ask the Government whether they would express to the Rugby Football Union their strong disapproval of the proposed rugby tour of South Africa?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I thought that I had already said that my honourable friend the Minister for Sport has been consistently doing that over the past few months. I shall also have an opportunity in an Unstarred Question tomorrow to add my own words of discouragement to that particular sporting body.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Gleneagles Agreement of 16th June 1977 has, so far as I can check with the Library and other places, never been debated in either House? Might it not be desirable at some time to have a debate? Secondly, is not the difficulty with the Gleneagles Agreement (which was fully justified at the time at which it was agreed) that it cannot be easily modified? Do the Government have any ideas of how it might be modified as South Africa adjusts itself and gets away from the abhorrent policy of apartheid?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, as far as a debate is concerned, if there is sufficient call for one I am quite sure that the usual channels will consider it in their usual manner. I am afraid that I cannot remember 629 what the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question was. If my noble friend would repeat it, I shall then be able to answer it.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, may I ask the Minister one final question which is in two parts? Will he confirm—because I want to be absolutely clear about this—that the Government interpret the Gleneagles Agreement as requiring not integration in sport but the total abolition of apartheid; and, secondly, are the Government convinced that in no other country in the world—especially in the British Commonwealth—is sport organised on the basis of race, colour or ethnic origin? Are the Government totally convinced that that exists nowhere else in the world except in South Africa?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, as far as the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question goes, I am afraid I do not have any idea as to that. As far as the first part goes, yes, he is quite right. Implicit in the original Gleneagles Agreement was the condemnation of apartheid.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, I do beg the leave of the House to return to this because that is not the answer to my question. I know what is implicit in the Gleneagles Agreement because I have read it with great care. Do the Government interpret this as being binding upon British policy, that before sporting links with South Africa may be resumed apartheid has to be abolished? That must be a simple yes or no answer.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am afraid that it is not as easy as that. The membership of any organisation, whether international or national, carries with it both benefits and obligations. Depending on the point of view that noble Lords take as to whether being a party to the Gleneagles Agreement is a benefit or an obligation—and we have had both ideas expressed in our exchanges this afternoon—then it would be for a general consensus of those same Heads of Government to change the policy which all governments would then follow were this to be seen to be desirable.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, would my noble friend look into the question of what other governments have discrimination and, in particular, for example, the discrimination against the "untouchables" in India; and, if so, what justification there is for having one policy against one country with discrimination, and a different policy for another country with another discrimination against different people?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, yes, I will certainly look at that: but it is another Question.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, my noble friend just used the term "agreement" again, whereas earlier he said that it was a statement. Can he confirm that what we are talking about is a statement or a communiqué, and nothing that is remotely like, say, a treaty?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, it is a communiqué which is commonly referred to as the Gleneagles Agreement.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, in the meantime, is the noble Lord aware that his forthright statement condemning apartheid will be welcomed throughout the Commonwealth and throughout, I venture to think, most of the Benches of this House?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord.

§ Lord Shinwell
My Lords, but if it is merely a matter of apartheid, why not include Russia?

§ Lord Vaux of Harrowden
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that there is no such thing as discrimination or apartheid in sport in South Africa today?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, that is quite a stunner and is certainly not my understanding of the situation.

§ Lord Vaux of Harrowden
My Lords, but it does happen to be correct.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has battled very well in extremely difficult circumstances and very tricky questions?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am grateful.

§ Lord Milverton
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister—

Noble Lords
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