HL Deb 13 March 1984 vol 449 cc633-5

2.56 p.m.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what funding and administrative arrangements they plan to make for the archaeological service in the areas of the metropolitan county councils referred to in the White Paper, Streamlining the Cities (Cmnd. 9063).

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)

My Lords, the Department of the Environment provides grant-aid towards the investigation and recording of specific archaeological sites and monuments. After 1st April, 1984 this grant will continue but will be administered by the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission. The Government are considering future arrangements for archaeological services at present provided by the metropolitan county councils themselves, in the light of the response to the White Paper, Streamlining the Cities.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. However, I wonder whether he realises the extent of concern there is, for example, in the Yorkshire Archaeological Society and in many other such regional and national societies of this nature? Is the noble Lord aware that this is a question of not only taking over the recording and the excavation of sites, but is much more than that? For example, does he know that in his county and my county of West Yorkshire some very important findings have taken place relating to the Iron Age?

Is he further aware that the work behind such excavation and recording is deeply integrated in the metropolitan counties' support services, in terms of legal support, technical support, and so on? Can the noble Lord give some assurance to those who are involved in archaeology that a comprehensive service similar to that now being provided by the metropolitan counties will be available in the future, so enabling this support to continue?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am very pleased that the noble Baroness refers specifically to an area which both she and I know so well. Yes, of course, we are concerned about that matter and the particular service involved, too. But I see no reason why what is proposed should lead to any deterioration in the service. In any case I would advise the noble Baroness to be a little patient until we come up with more specific details at the end of the day in response to the consultation, and I suspect that she will not be as concerned then as she seems to be now.

Lord Graham of Edmonton

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his noble friend has told the London and Middlesex Archaeological Society that he hopes—and I stress that word—that the needs of archaeology will be taken into account by London boroughs when they consider how to work more closely together in the future? In view of the poor record of London boroughs working together, is it not a fact that London, and indeed the nation, should expect that their historic sites and artefacts should rest on more than the hopes of a Minister or pious ministerial statements?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord feels that my response is, to quote him, "a pious ministerial statement". I would have ascribed more to it than that. If the noble Lord will read carefully what I said in my initial reply, he will see that the specific type of instance that he mentions is in fact to be dealt with by the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister would give advice to his own department along the reassuring lines of that which he has given to the House this afternoon. I wonder whether he is aware, for instance, that a letter from his department went to the Council for British Archaeology saying that it is for the archaeological units concerned to consider their own future in the light of the proposals for the abolition of the metropolitan counties. Will the noble Lord confirm what he has just said, and will he please see that information is conveyed to those who are responding on behalf of his department?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, I am not sure that I can add much to what I have already said. I am still satisfied at the end of the day, that the boroughs and districts themselves will be no less responsible in attitude than I think they have always been. What is different now is that in the last 10 years in the case of the metropolitan districts and areas, and in the last 20 years in the case of London, there have been built up certain types of bodies which are doing good work. I remain very confident that the authorities which will succeed will be as responsible as everyone else has been in the last few years.

Lord Shackleton

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the archaeological service has already received one blow by the decision, through inadequate funding, to stop the Ordnance Survey supporting archaeological work? Will he bear that in mind?

Lord Bellwin

My Lords, yes; I hear what the noble Lord says.