Local Government: Proposed Reorganisation (Hansard, 12 March 1984)

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Molloy, and at his request. I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)
My Lords, we have received a large number of responses, making many detailed comments on the proposals in our White Paper. In due course, we shall make available a summary analysis of the main points.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, when the Government make this analysis and publish it, is it 485 possible that they will reconsider their decision in the light of the many comments they will be receiving?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, we made a commitment to which we will adhere; but of course the observations and comments made will be analysed and reported. We shall see what they constructively may add to those proposals.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, has the Minister had time to evaluate fully the Coopers and Lybrand Report? Will he now admit that it completely demolishes his case that the abolition of the GLC and the metropolitan county councils will save ratepayers' money?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the report does exactly the opposite: it confirms the opportunities that exist.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, does not the noble Lord the Minister recall the answer he gave to me recently, when I put a supplementary question as to whether the Government propose to make a response to the Coopers and Lybrand Report, and he said his right honourable friend the Secretary of State had issued a press statement? On reflection, does the Minister not consider that a press statement is a woefully inadequate response to a well thought out document, and would it not be helpful to everyone if there was a Government reply to all the details in this report?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, it depends what the press statement says. I think the one that my right honourable friend put out was sufficiently succinct to make the point which we have made all along; namely, that you can in these reports get out many answers; it depends what you feed in and on the suppositions upon which you base the reports. I thought that my right honourable friend's response was a very full one.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is it true that one of the options being looked at in the case of Greater London is the replacement of the GLC by another elected authority which will take over the remaining functions not to be transferred to the boroughs?

§ Lord Bellwin
Yes, my Lords, I have seen this put forward.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, I am sorry to ask the Minister again, but he said that the answer one gets to these reports depends on what one puts in. But surely he is aware that the report was not one compiled by the metropolitan county councils but it was compiled by very noted managerial consultants, Coopers and Lybrand.

§ Lord Bellwin
Of course, my Lords; but they themselves said the suppositions upon which they based their conclusions were varied in that they could not know what the decisions of the boroughs and districts would be at the time that they made those decisions as to what their spending would be in relation to the functions they were taking over.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, would the Minister agree that since the war there have been far too many reorganisations of local government, and would it not be a good idea to let things go on as they are for a time?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I would have thought the last thing that would be a good idea would be to let things go on as they are at the present time.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, in view of the genuine doubts and objections which the noble Lord must accept exist throughout the country across the board and including all political parties, may I ask this. Does the noble Lord not believe that it would be right and proper within our system, before drafting legislation and presenting it to Parliament, to set up an inquiry of some kind, such as a Select Committee or even a Royal Commission, to look at all the arguments for and against this proposal? Is he aware that if this was done by the Government they would gain great support and respect from the general public?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the situation which the proposed legislation is to deal with is such that the Government feel that the matter cannot be left to an inquiry such as the noble Lord suggests which, he would be the first to agree, would take years to produce a report. The fact is that the situation cannot be allowed to go on as it is at the present time.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, given that we have had the Coopers and Lybrand Report—even if it does not totally please the Minister—would it not at least be possible to have a debate in this House in which the findings of that report could be discussed?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, it is entirely up to the noble Baroness to do that through the normal channels.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that many distinguished Conservatives take the view that the consequences of the Government going ahead as they now propose would be more disastrous than if they were to leave well alone? In view of this and other matters which have come to light, as a result of inquiries by non-political bodies as well, will not the Government think again?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the Government think all the time.