Redundant Miners: Alternative Employment (Hansard, 28 June 1984)

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy (The Earl of Avon)
My Lords, the National Coal Board have agreed to set up a company, provisionally to be called NCB Enterprises Limited, to support work in the coalfields in easing any problems that might be caused where men choose to accept redundancy, particularly in the case of younger men. As a first step, a task force has been set up to examine ways of co-operating with other agencies in order to support efforts to bring new businesses and new employment to the coalfields. The task force is to report to an early meeting of the board, after which we should be better able to answer the detailed points on which my noble friend is seeking information.

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, does my noble friend feel that he has gone far enough? Can he not bring a little more comfort, hope and encouragement to miners, many of whom undoubtedly in increasing numbers are thinking of going back to work? Is not 55—I think it is my noble friend's age—very young to retire with very little prospect of finding another job, and will not the problem be accentuated in the next few years—which my noble friend has hinted at—by much younger miners opting for redundancy pay and looking for other work? So can my noble friend perhaps assure the House that the Government have a real sense of urgency about this question?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I think we would all welcome what the NCB are doing. Of course, the Government already have their training opportunities schemes. Also, we should pay a compliment to the NCB, who for many years have provided a counselling service for men who are considering taking redundancy. We shall see that the present scheme is pursued as fast as possible.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is not the action by the NCB literally a matter of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted? Would it not have been far better, before the Coal Board announced their closure programme, to have had consultations with the miners about bringing alternative employment to the area and agreeing not to go ahead with pit closures unless and until such employment had been brought forward? Also, may I ask the Minister to prevail upon the chairman of the National Coal Board, and point out to him that instead of announcing—as is apparent from the press this morning—that he would prefer the dispute to go on, apparently until it suits him, he should get down to retaining and returning confidence among the miners that the Coal Board really are interested in the future of miners and mining areas?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, the Government's policy is directed towards the basic objective of the Plan for Coal, as is the Coal Board's. That objective is to have an efficient, competitive coal industry, with a secure long-term future. That is what the chairman is working towards. The chairman has made it abundantly clear that his door is open at any time for discussions with the National Union of Mineworkers on the subject of the present dispute.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, in view of the last supplementary question, I should like to ask my noble friend whether he is aware that there is not such a thing as a compulsorily redundant miner? It is only voluntary redundancy, and jobs are on offer for any who want to move from one pit to another. To give the impression that there is compulsory redundancy is not to state correctly the case as it stands at the moment.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for underlining the fact that at the moment all the redundancies have indeed been voluntary. It might interest the House to know the statistics in relation to pit closures last year. Some 75 per cent. of those miners were found jobs elsewhere.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that he does not give any sense of that urgency for which his noble friend Lord Chelwood asked? Is he further aware that this is not a question of redundancy payments or finding jobs elsewhere? If the noble Earl goes to those areas, as I did this last week, he will find that those men talk about the community. It is not just a question of getting an individual job, or redundancy pay. They want a viable community; and to have a viable community one has to bring some new businesses into the area.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am aware of that; and the Government, together with the Coal Board, work towards helping in the community area as well.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that, at this critical juncture in the coal dispute, speedy and imaginative action of the kind referred to in the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, might prove a decisive factor in encouraging a return to work by many miners who may now be wavering in their support for this strike?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I do not wish to be drawn into the larger issues here. One of the problems is the fact that at the moment the miners who want to go to work are being impeded from so doing.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that under previous administrations, when unemployment was a fraction of what it is now, potential pit closures were referred to the Welsh Economic Council and similar bodies in England and Wales? These bodies considered very carefully the position of the communities and the industries concerned, and possible future industries, and then reported to Ministers. Is there not a very strong case now for setting up an independent inquiry to consider a return to this system, and also to consider other urgent matters connected with the mining industry?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and his wisdom for that intervention. So far as I know, the sort of things that he has mentioned are still available and still happen, and discussions do take place. I will bear in mind what the noble Lord said.
Lord Airedale My Lords, may I ask the Minister this question? Supposing a pit closes, a village is deserted and no ancillary industry can be brought in, what happens to the ancillary industries in the village, like the village shop, which is likely to suddenly find ruin staring it in the face?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, the noble Lord asks a fairly hypothetical question. If he wants to ask me a specific question I shall be happy to get the statistics for him.

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, am I right in thinking that I have a wrong impression when I say that my noble friend's reply did not give me the feeling that the Government have a real sense of urgency about this matter, which surely there should be? If I were to put down this Question again before we rise for the Summer Recess, could I then have a full reply to it?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, I do not think my noble friend is being completely fair. I said to him in my reply that the task force is to report to an early meeting of the board, after which we should be better able to answer the detailed points of my noble friend's Question. Certainly I will offer to do that.

Viscount Tonypandy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is quite wrong for any community in this 1031 land to be left without hope, and that unless there is greater urgency shown in telling these mining communities that they are on the conscience of this House, of the other House and of the Government, then we can continue to expect trouble? But if hope is held out, that there is greater action along the lines that the noble Lord, Lord Chelwood, asked for, then we can expect a decent response from those good, loyal communities.

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, what I have been trying to convey to the House this afternoon is that there is already a number of schemes in existence, operated both by the Government and the MSC, and new ideas are coming forward. I hope this offers a positive future to the mining communities.

§ Lord Jacques
My Lords, will the Minister bear in mind that miners know from past experience that what happens in such circumstances is that work is found, not for them but for their womenfolk?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, the noble Lord produces an interesting sideline on which I do not wish to comment.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, does the noble Earl recall the success of the Council for Small Industries in Rural Areas in generating new activity in run-down areas from which traditional industries have departed? Has he further considered the possiblity of trying a similar organisation in the run-down mining areas—the so-called COSIURBA idea? Does he recall mentioning within the past couple of months that this idea would be considered. and has any conclusion been reached?

§ The Earl of Avon
My Lords, the NCB are encouraging new jobs in the mining areas; and the Manpower Services Commission and other agencies, in order to support these efforts, are trying to bring in new business and new employment. This is most welcome. I believe it is further evidence that the board are concerned to ensure that, where men leave the industry, they are given every possible assistance.