Students' Travel Grants (Hansard, 25 June 1984)

The Lord Bishop of Rochester
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, grants made for students living in England and Wales are made by local education authorities under the terms of the Education (Mandatory Awards) Regulations, while in Scotland the Scottish Education Department makes grants to students under corresponding regulations. No distinction is made between the places of study. In view of the particular travel circumstances faced by many Scottish students, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland considered that it would not be appropriate at the present time to introduce a flat rate scheme similar to that being introduced in England and Wales.

The Lord Bishop of Rochester
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply to my Question. If I may say so, it illustrates only too well the rough justice of which the Secretary of State has spoken in connection with this new arrangement. Is the noble Earl aware that 2,150 students at the University of Kent do not live on the campus and, because of the pressure on accommodation in Canterbury, have to live all over East Kent and beyond? The cost of daily travel for them can be over £300 a year, which is as much as, or more than, that for many Scottish students.
May I further ask whether the noble Earl is aware that the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals has followed the lead of the University of Kent in offering to take on the processing of claims, thereby helping towards the administrative simplicity which the Secretary of State desires to achieve?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I must admit that I was not aware of the figures quoted by the right reverend Prelate in relation to Canterbury, but I did realise and appreciate that there were some difficulties there. The reason for the differences between England and Wales and Scotland is that in England and Wales only about 12 per cent. of students study from the parental home compared with around 40 per cent. in Scotland, many of whom make long daily journeys to and from universities and colleges. The proportion of home students in the west of Scotland is particularly high, and a change to a flat rate system would be felt 616 particularly hard in that area. Travelling expenses can also be high for students living in remote areas, such as the Scottish islands.
In answer to the right reverend Prelate's third supplementary question, one of the reasons why we are introducing a flat rate scheme in this country is to reduce the cost of administration at present undertaken by the LEAs. I do not think that the substitution of one administrative organisation for another would bring about the administrative savings we are seeking. Nor would it allow us to bring total public expenditure on students under closer control.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, further to the supplementary question of the right reverend Prelate concerning students at Canterbury, do I understand that the DES had no figures of potential hardship and what was likely to happen at the different universities before it came to its decision on the new arrangements for travel grants?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, as I said recently, I think in answer to a Question from the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, the department consulted various bodies and came to the conclusion that this was the right thing to do.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the figures given by the right reverend Prelate exactly bear out the figures I gave him a fortnight ago with regard to a large provincial polytechnic? Will the noble Earl now reconsider the flat rate scheme for England and Wales? Is he aware that it will cause great injustice and take a great deal of money away from many students? Will the noble Earl look at it again?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, again as I said recently, in answer to a Question from, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, the department is not prepared to reconsider the scheme. Although there will be some hardships, I think they will probably be overcome and the majority of students will, in fact, be better off under the new scheme.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, when he says that the majority of students will be better off, the Government will save a great deal of money by introducing this scheme and that it is a mean and miserable way of doing it?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, at the moment the scheme is completely open-ended, and this is one of the ways in which the Government can cut down some expenditure.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction, as my noble friend Lord Glenamara said, and that there is every justification for having another look at this? Furthermore, does he not agree that the position of Welsh university students is similar to that of the Scottish university students, and, therefore, that it is very unfair? While I sympathise with the Scottish students and certainly would not wish to see any reduction in what they are receiving, nevertheless, in all fairness, this scheme should be looked at much more carefully. Will the noble Earl, as part of a further 617 inquiry, discuss this with his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I said in my original Answer to the right reverend Prelate that the figures for England and Wales show that only about 12 per cent. of students study from the parental home, compared with around 40 per cent. in Scotland. I think the figures are fairly widespread over England and Wales, and I do not believe there is any particular reason to reconsider this matter.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, as the noble Earl has some knowledge of Wales himself, and has lived there, he must realise that the position in Wales is obviously very similar to that in Scotland. Geographically, there are the same difficulties and, if not quite the same distances, there are, nevertheless, substantial distances. I ask the noble Earl most earnestly to discuss this matter again with the Secretary of State for Wales, because I presume he has already discussed it with him.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, quite understands my point. It is historically a fact that students in Scotland, in particular, tend to travel from their homes to universities and colleges. This does not happen to quite the same extent in Wales. It is not a question of how far the students have to go to attend college.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I apologise for rising once more, but I must ask the noble Earl to look at this again. My noble and learned friend Lord Elwyn-Jones was president of the University College in Cardiff, and I have the honour to be the president of the University College of Wales. We are aware that exactly the same circumstances apply and that students do travel from their homes to Bangor, Aberystwyth, Swansea and Cardiff. Would the noble Earl therefore be good enough to discuss this matter with his right honourable friend? That would cost him nothing at all.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I shall certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to this question and answer session today, but I can offer very little hope to the noble Lord that the situation will be changed.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Government accept the validity of the National Union of Students' survey, which was published today, in which is contained evidence that students in London will have £155 in excess of the fixed sum to pay? This is an important matter, and I think that we should have a good answer.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, with all respect to the noble Baroness, I thought that I answered this question the other day. We feel that such information is of very limited value, because in relation to what is now proposed we would expect students' travel patterns to change as they arrange their affairs so as to get maximum advantage from the new arrangements.

§ Lord Cameron of Balhousie
My Lords, may I speak as the principal of King's College of the University of London? Some of the problems of course have been—

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Cameron of Balhousie
I would just like to ask that the whole situation be examined again. We are being pressed by the UGC, which is a Government agency, after all, to increase hall fees, which we are doing to try to make figures break even. But the question of increased travel costs for students at the University of London has made the student position almost impossible, and I beg the Government to look at that again, because it is making things very difficult.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, one can do no more than speculate at this stage on what effects any of the new arrangements will have on the number of students coming to London. Should any evidence emerge in future years, we will of course be ready to consider it.