Customs and Excise: Strength (Hansard, 25 June 1984)

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, an additional 60 posts have recently been allocated for the enhancement of preventive controls of both passengers and freight. Most of the extra staff will be uniformed. Their functions will include the gathering of intelligence so that operations against drug smuggling and other illegal activities can be targeted more accurately.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, may I thank the noble Earl for that answer. Would he agree with me that there is increasing public disquiet about the increasing traffic in cocaine and heroin in this country? The very modest announcement he has made today compares extremely unfavourably with the reduction of 900 Customs and Excise uniformed staff, which has taken place since April 1979.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I would not accept that more uniformed staff are always likely to lead to more convictions. The Government share the noble Lord's anxiety about the increase in this traffic, and I think that a flexible response, including more intelligence gathering staff, more contacts, more staff working abroad, and the like, is very important if we are to obtain increased convictions.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, does the noble Lord the Minister remember that on a previous occasion at Question Time on this subject, concern was expressed at the lack of liaison between the Customs and Excise, the Home Office and the police? Is he now satisfied that that liaison exists, and that administrative arrangements have been made to make that liaison thoroughly effective?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I do not know whether "satisfied" is the right word; but the fact of the matter is that the lead department on anything to do with smuggling is, as the noble Lord is aware, HM Customs and Excise. There has been an increase of 622 nearly 40 per cent. in the staffing of the investigation division in Customs and Excise over the past five years. Therefore, the only difference between me and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, who asked me the original Question— and I do not think it is a very substantive ones— is whether the emphasis is right in increasing investigative staff as against an increase in uniformed staff.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, may I put a further question to the noble Earl on that particular point? May I ask him whether he would agree that in a situation where there has been a very substantial increase of illicit importation of cocaine and heroin it is right to reduce the uniformed staff of HM Customs and Excise at Heathrow and elsewhere, when we know perfectly well that many people going through the green channel have illicitly imported these dangerous drugs into this country and are now less likely to have their luggage inspected because of the reduction in staff that has been brought about during the lifetime of the present Government?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, my advice is that the bulk of smuggling of illegal drugs is not necessarily through the green channel. The important thing is to try and increase the money and the staffing for the division of the Customs and Excise which deals with drug smuggling. This we have done.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Minister forgive me for returning to the Dispatch Box? The reason is that he may have misunderstood my question or misheard it. I was not referring to the numbers in Customs and Excise dealing with this matter. I asked him if he remembered the concern that was expressed previously as to the lack of liaison and co-operation between Customs and Excise, the police and the Home Office. I asked him whether he was now satisfied that that co-operation existed and administratively was working well.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I think the House will understand that I was trying to answer the noble Lord in the context of the original Question on the Order Paper, and that I have an ordinary politician's caution about the use of the word "satisfied". However, I am convinced that the liaison is working well.

§ Lord Ironside
My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that it is insufficient to have more human intelligence and what we need is more artificial intelligence? Would he tell the House what plans he has for introducing more scientific methods of detection of these sort of goods entering the country, such as the use of robotic noses instead of sniffer dogs?

The Earl of Cowrie
My Lords, I certainly agree with my noble friend that it is important in combating this horrendous crime to have a flexible response from all arms of the service, uniformed, the investigative units and the rest. On technology, HM Customs and Excise are collaborating with the laboratory of the Government chemist and an industrial company in the United Kingdom on the development of a device such as the noble Lord describes. When its sensitivity 623 and selectivity has been perfected for the purpose, it should be a valuable aid in the detection of concealed drugs. To be effective, however, it will have to be operated by skilled, experienced staff and can only supplement the efforts of uniformed Customs officers. On the question of dogs, I understand that the track record on the detection of cannibis by sniffer dogs is excellent.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that there have been bumper crops of poppies in South-East Asia, and that the Customs men are very worried that there will be a flood of new heroin coming in from the Golden Triangle?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I had heard this, and the Government are extremely concerned about the growth of traffic in what seems to me to be one of the worst crimes that human beings can commit. My point is that we are increasing the numbers (and therefore the expenditure) of those who are dealing with it. However, that does not mean to say that there are not some staff economies available over the whole of HM Customs and Excise, which also deals with many other issues.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, can the noble Earl give us any idea what percentage of heroin and cocaine coming into the country is intercepted by Customs and Excise?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I would need notice of that.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, arising from the answer given to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, in regard to the reduction in uniformed staff, is the noble Earl aware that at the time those reductions were made— they were made on a number of occasions—the House was informed that this was done in the interests of economy? Will the noble Earl inform us whether he is now satisfied that the changes he has made have been cost effective? Will he make a further study on those lines to see what benefits, if any, have accrued to the state by reason of the reduction in uniformed personnel?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, with great respect, is pursuing a chimera. I was not talking about cuts. I was talking about increases of a substantial and expensive kind in the personnel dealing with this issue. I said that there had been an increase of nearly 40 per cent. in the staffing of the investigation division of Customs and Excise over the last five years. The increase in specialist investigators dealing with drug smuggling is even higher. For instance, the number of full-time investigators based in London has risen from 121 in 1979 to 196 in 1984, and so on. It is not good enough to present this kind of thing as some sort of cut.

§ Lady Kinloss
My Lords, can the Minister say whether there are now adequate safeguards in the law to stop such cases as Operation Snowball, reported in the Daily Express on Monday, 11 th June, from happening again?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, we shall use our best endeavours to try and stem the horrific growth in this crime.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware, on the last point that he made, that the Parole Board regularly sees cases of people who have been arrested at Heathrow bringing drugs illicitly through the green channel? Is he aware, in the context of the reply he has given today, that it is disturbing that it is possible to pass through the green channel as easily as one can at the moment? One reason is the reduction of the 900 uniformed staff that has taken place since April 1979.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I have to say that I do not agree with the noble Lord, for the reasons that I gave earlier. It certainly might be the case that we should consider altering the green and red system that has obtained under successive governments over a number of years because of the growth in this crime which, as I say, we think is an especially horrifying one. But it would be not so much at the cost of savings in staff but at the cost of an enormous additional disruption to many millions of wholly legitimate travellers. Obviously, as the noble Lord knows, these things have to be weighed up. That is done all the time. At the moment, we have decided to increase the number of investigators on this issue and to try and provide a flexible response to it. We take it very seriously indeed.