Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 1984

HL Deb 21 June 1984 vol 453 cc491-514

6.50 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (LordLyell)

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft Appropriation (No. 2) (Northern Ireland)Order 1984 which was laid before this House on 9th May be approved

I should remind the House that the order is being made under paragraph I of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974. The purpose of the draft order is to authorise the issue off £1,605 million sterling out of the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland and to appropriate this sum for the purposes shown in the schedule. This represents the balance of the 1984–85 Main Estimates for Northern Ireland departments and brings the total Main Estimates provision for the year to £2,831 million. Copies of the Estimates are available in the Printed Paper Office.

This debate is taking place somewhat earlier than in recent years. I should stress that this is possible because we have been able to lay the draft order and publish the Main Estimates for Northern Ireland departments on 9th May this year. We believe that it is right that the Estimates should be published as early as possible in the year to which they relate and a refinement of procedures has enabled publication to be brought forward. I hope that your Lordships will find this helpful.

Before I go on to outline some of the main features of the draft order, I should at the outset like to say something about developments on the broader economic front where the picture is encouraging. The national economy grew by 3 per cent. last year and recovery at the same rate is expected to continue throughout 1984. Inflation is down to 5 per cent. With it have come improved trading conditions and, despite last month's increase, an overall reduction in interest rates. There are signs that Northern Ireland is sharing in this recovery. Manufacturing production in Northern Ireland in 1983 was 3 per cent. above the level of 1982.

A number of recent surveys are in general agreement on the short-term prospects for the Northern Ireland economy. All these surveys report that signs of improvement are beginning to emerge. The latest CBI report is particularly encouraging. It confirms that the upturn in the United Kingdom is also being experienced locally. Both home and export demand continue to rise, with general business confidence also improving.

I am glad to say that the employment figures are showing more stability. The fall of 2,600 in the 12 months since March 1983 contrasts with 13,500 in the previous 12 months. But unemployment remains a major problem in the Province; in statistical terms, a total unemployment rate of 21.6 per cent. against the United Kingdom average of 12.9 per cent.

The Government recognise the severity of the economic and, indeed, the other problems facing Northern Ireland. Accordingly, the size and balance of the Northern Ireland public expenditure programme has been formulated to reflect the Province's particular needs. Total public expenditure in 1984–85 will be £4,032 million. This represents an increase of some £13 million on the amount originally planned for this year. This is a small increase in real terms over 1983–84. Within this amount we are continuing to accord priority to law and order, to industrial support and development, and to housing.

Before turning to the specific services for which provision is sought. I would like to say a few words on the recent common agricultural policy settlement. I sympathise with the difficulties faced by Northern Ireland farmers following the measures agreed by European Community agriculture Ministers as part of the price fixing for 1984–85. It is quite understandable that those farmers who see their incomes threatened should express their feelings in the strongest of terms. However, the burden on taxpayers in financing the disposal of surplus commodities has become completely unacceptable. Surplus milk cost £3,000 million to dispose of in 1983 alone. The share for the United Kindom was about £600 million.

The Goverment fully understand that the quota in milk production presents special difficulties for the small producers, of whom there are a higher proportion in Northern Ireland. For that reason, and because of the expected greater proportion of hardship cases. the outgoers scheme will allow up to 5 per cent. of quota to be bought up in the Province compared with 21/4 per cent. in Great Britain. All milk producers in Northern Ireland received a letter last week from the Department of Agriculture giving further information on how the supplementary levy arrangements. particularly those dealing with special cases, will work. Detailed arrangements in the United Kingdom will shortly be made, and, soon after that. application forms, for both special case appeals and the outgoers scheme, will be available to producers. The progress of the dairy, the beef and other sectors are being very closely monitored by the Department of Agriculture.

I now turn to the provision being sought for specific services. The provision for agriculture presently sought in Class I of the Main Estimates now before your Lordships totals £61 million. The major elements are: £14 million for education. research and development: £24 million for administration and miscellaneous services, including Government support to the industry by way of advisory and veterinary services; £12 million for drainage; £5 million for forestry; and £5 million for direct support to the agricultural industry.

In addition, I am pleased to be able to remind noble Lords that special aid to agriculture will continue in the current year. This is not reflected in the Estimates before us this evening which were formulated before the £12 million package was announced. Detailed supplementary estimates for this aid will be presented later in the year.

Trade, industry and employment services are covered by Class 11 of the Estimates. It has already been announced that the Government will formally confer free trade zone status on six sites in the United Kingdom, including one in Northern Ireland, located at Belfast International Airport. I believe that this has the potential to attract international manufacturing, and service activities, and to stimulate new employment opportunities for the benefit of the Province as a whole.

The draft order provides resources for the Industrial Development Board to achieve three broad objectives this year. First, it aims to diversify and widen Northern Ireland's industrial base by attracting overseas companies to invest in the Province. Prospects for the current year are enhanced both by the continuing expansion of overseas economies, particularly that of the United States, and by the recent higher levels of interest being shown in Northern Ireland as a potential location for investment. Your Lordships will welcome the recent decisions by two major American investors to consolidate their operations in Northern Ireland. Fisher Body, part of the General Motors corporation, has announced the establishment of an engineering design and development facility in Northern Ireland and in the electronics field the AVX company in Lame has signalled its intention to expand, substantially, its operations in Northern Ireland. These projects reflect the confidence of overseas companies which have experience of operating in Northern Ireland.

Secondly, the IDB will continue to stimulate the expansion, modernisation and improved efficiency of indigenous industry, and, as necessary, will give support to companies which, while experiencing difficulties, are thought to have a viable future. The IDB's third objective for this year is to counter the adverse image of Northern Ireland through a vigorous public relations programme, including work in the USA,Canada, Great Britain, Europe and the Far East.

As your Lordships may already be aware, Northern Ireland's small business agency, the Local Enterprise Development Unit, has announced yet another record performance for the year ended March 1984, during which it promoted 3,658 jobs in small businesses in the Province. This not only represents a significant improvement on the previous year's record performance of 2,550 job promotions, but also considerably exceeds the unit's own target of 3,100 jobs. This performance is remarkable, given the extremely difficult economic and political situation in the Province.

Your Lordships will see that Class II Vote 3 includes £37.6 million for the continued support of Harland and Wolff. This estimate represents a reduction of some £2.4 million from last year's figure, reflecting the company's drive to cut overheads and become more cost-competitive. These efforts are continuing in the face of adverse market conditions. Your Lordships will, of course, be aware that the company has had some success over recent months, winning a number of small orders and the more substantial £30 million Ministry of Defence conversion order for an aviation training ship. These orders have helped, but I am bound to say that market conditions are likely to remain very depressed and the company still has considerable difficulties to face. The provision sought in these Estimates is designed to help the company to meet this challenge.

In Northern Ireland the vocational preparation needs of 16- and 17-year-olds are catered for through a comprehensive youth training programme. The programme was launched in September 1982 and was devised in Northern Ireland to meet local needs. It is a substantial commitment; for 1984–85 there is provision in the Estimates for more than 6,000 young people who are already in training. Provision is also made for some 9,000 new entrants to commence training. In addition, funding is provided for the training of a further 11,000 young people already in employment. Some £49 million is provided for such training programmes by the Department of Economic Development and of Education.

I now turn to Northern Ireland's energy industries. Our policy on electricity tariffs is that they should not exceed the highest levels in England and Wales. We expect this policy to cost in excess of £80 million in 1984–85. Noble Lords will appreciate that this is a very substantial commitment to the Northern Ireland electricity consumer, and provides a large measure of relief to both the domestic and industrial sectors. The policy also makes a substantial demand on the Northern Ireland public expenditure block.

Looking to the future, the Government, in consultation with the Northern Ireland Electricity Service and independent experts, are continuing their examination of how to reduce our high electricity generating costs. Of crucial importance is the role which coal or lignite might play in future generation. Our examination on this score has not yet been completed.

Class III, Vote 1 covers the restructuring of the retail gas industry and the natural gas project. Following the Government's announcement last October, the Northern Ireland Gas Company has been in detailed negotiations with its counterpart in the Republic of Ireland on the terms of a 22-year contract. However, in the course of continuous monitoring on the progress of the project, factors involving price and potential market have emerged which could affect the prospects for the project. These factors are now being carefully assessed. This assessment is being carried out as a matter of urgency and will be completed as quickly as possible.

If I may now turn to the programmes of the Department of the Environment, I shall begin with the roads programme. The total net provision being sought under Class IV, Vote 1 is some £91 million. Of this sum more than £26 million is required for street lighting, car parking, and other expenditure, such as that on administration, and £47 million is needed to finance the operation and maintenance of the Province's road system. The capital element of nearly £18 million is somewhat lower than in previous years when provision was made for two very large projects—the M1–M2 Westlink in Belfast and the Foyle Bridge at Londonderry. The Westlink is now operational. The Foyle Bridge is nearing completion, with single lanes now in operation. It is hoped to have the bridge fully opened to traffic by the late summer of this year. Your Lordships will be aware that the road system in Northern Ireland is generally of a high standard, but it is essential that this is maintained. It is therefore on maintenance that emphasis is now being placed.

The housing programme has been given top priority among Northern Ireland's social and environmental programmes since 1981. Total gross expenditure on housing services in Northern Ireland has grown from £325 million in 1980–81 to £526 million in 1984–85—clear evidence of the importance which the Government attach to the programme. This increase in expenditure has resulted in significant improvements in Northern Ireland's housing conditions. The Housing Executive's waiting lists fell significantly in the period up to 1983. It is estimated that unfitness levels have already been reduced to around 9 per cent. Private sector new housebuilding has increased to record levels and more individuals have tackled their own housing problems with the aid of house renovation grants.

Some switches in emphasis have been made in the housing strategy to increase our efforts on the improvement and maintenance of the existing housing stock. The Housing Executive's capital and revenue budgets make provision for expenditure of £73 million on the rehabilitation and improvement of the existing housing stock, and £51 million on the maintenance of the Executive's stock.

A corollary of the switch in emphasis towards maintenance and improvement programmes is that the Housing Executive's planned new house building programme has borne some reduction. However, the Executive still plans to let contracts for 3,000 new dwellings during the financial year, thereby maintaining a significant new building programme.

My Lords, we believe that the strategy which is reflected in the total provision for housing takes realistic account of the housing problems of Northern Ireland. and the steps necessary to alleviate them.

In Class VI, Vote 1 (water and sewerage services) £75. .6 million is sought to provide and maintain water and sewerage facilities throughout the Province. Of this, £24 ..8 million is required for capital works, and the balance of the Estimate is to meet operational and administrative costs.

Turning briefly to Class VI, Vote 2 (improvement of the environment) I would take this opportunity to mention some of the steps being taken to deal with the urban problems which exist in the city of Belfast. The impetus given to the housing programme over the last few years, to which I have already referred, has contributed greatly towards regeneration of Belfast. Other important elements in urban renewal are to be found in Class VI, Vote 2, and include environmental improvement schemes, comprehensive development schemes (for the redevelopment of commercial city centres and the development of district centres) the enterprise zone, and urban development grants. These provide the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland with a good range of tools with which to tackle the city's problems.

Class VIII of the Estimates makes a total provision of more than £570 million for education, libraries and arts. The Government continue to attach importance to the maintenance of classroom standards. The provision for teachers' salaries in Vote 1 allows continuation of the existing pupil-teacher ratios. However, in a rapidly changing world the maintenance of traditional standards alone is not enough to meet the needs of today's generation of schoolchildren. The provisions sought in Votes 1 and 4 therefore provide for the start of a major initiative in secondary schools, which will build upon the valuable work already under way, in a limited number of schools, for the less able fourth and fifth year pupils. The aim is to broaden the curricular experience of pupils of all levels of ability and to ensure that what is taught is both personally challenging and relevant to the employment and social conditions which pupils will meet after leaving school.

In Class VIII, Vote 3. it has been possible, despite the other calls on the education budget, to sustain support from public funds for cultural, recreational and community provision at broadly the same levels as in 1983–84, and to reintroduce on a modest scale the purchase grants-in-aid to the two main Northern Ireland museums.

Class IX provides for health and personal social services. A net total of £608. .4 million is being sought to maintain the existing level of provision and to allow for some development of services. Under Vote 1. £526 million is sought for the hospital, community health and personal social services, and some centrally funded services, of which £489 million is being provided to meet the revenue expenditure of the health and social services boards.

Under Class IX, Vote 2, we are seeking provision for the family practitioner services provided by family doctors, dentists. chemists and opticians. The cost of the family practitioner services has been rising steadily in recent years. and we are seeking in several ways to contain the costs to the public purse without affecting the excellence of the work which family doctors and other practitioners do in Northern Ireland.

Finally, under Class X provision has been made in Votes 2 and 3 for almost £595 million to cover noncontributory, housing and family benefits. This comprises about 53 per cent. of total estimated expenditure on social security benefits of some £1,133 million in the current year. The remainder is paid from the National Insurance Fund.

In these opening remarks I have tried to outline briefly the main features of the draft order before your Lordships and to touch upon some of the main policy issues underlying the provision sought. I know that. as usual on these occasions, your Lordships will wish to express your views on these matters and a great many others. I am especially grateful to those noble Lords who took the trouble to let me know in advance of the debate the topics which they intended to raise. I assure them that during the time available I shall try to reply to as many as I can of the points raised. Any points that remain unanswered I shall deal with very closely in correspondence later. With that, my Lords, I commend the draft order to the House.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 9th May be approved—(Lord Lyell.)

7.13 p.m.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, we have on a previous occasion welcomed the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, to his new ministerial position, and I now congratulate him on the presentation of his first appropriation order. As the noble Lord said, this gives us an opportunity to range over matters of Northern Ireland, and, in particular, to put special questions to the Minister. The debates seem to come round very quickly, and one hesitates to go over the same ground again. Echoing what the Minister has said, I welcome the fact that the order was published earlier and also that both the order and the Estimates were available in good time for consideration before this debate.

The Minister has referred to the very slight improvement in the unemployment figures compared with those at the time of our last appropriation order debate. Unemployment there now stands at 21.6 per cent., and he mentioned the comparison with the United Kingdom figure of 12.9 per cent. It has to be stressed that the figure of 21.6 per cent. is higher than those for the two worst regions in Great Britain; namely, the North-West at 17.3, and Wales at 16.1. The Northern Ireland Economic Council report of April 1984 asserted that it would require some 65,000 jobs to get hack to the 1979 level of employment. Perhaps I should say that the unemployment figure then was under 10 per cent. As I stressed in March, when we had our last appropriation order debate, the matter is of considerable concern when we realise that some 47 per cent. of the unemployed in Northern Ireland have been out of work for more than one year.

Of course, we are very pleased, as the noble Lord has emphasised, to learn of the further progress of the Enterprise Unit, with something like 3,700 jobs promoted in 1983–84. I saw from a press notice issued by LEDU that 19,000 jobs have been promoted by the organisation since it was established in 1971. It would be interesting to know how many of those jobs are still there. I note that the cost during the current year is estimated at £17 million. That, I understand from the note to the Estimates, is about £3,553 per job. I would emphasise that that is still cheaper than the cost of leaving a person out of work. That is a point we have made in connection with the whole of the United Kingdom time and time again.

Under Class II, Vote 1, reference is made to the provision for the Industrial Development Board. I note that the IDB News No. 3 issued in 1984 outlines some of the board's work. It is encouraging to see the number of new jobs it has promoted, but I note the help which has had to be given to maintain some of the 14,000 existing jobs—a variety of jobs under various headings all of the type of intervention which this side of the House has always advocated. But I note the emphasis given by the IDB to the reluctance of foreign undertakings to invest in Northern Ireland, and I note also that the Northern Ireland Economic Council's Report, Economic Assessment: April 1984,in paragraph 32, says: ….recent job promotion statistics show that the combined IDB and LEDU target for 1983–84 of 8,000, which is well below the level required to make a significant impact on unemployment, is unlikely to be attained". In the very next paragraph it states that there has been growing concern about several aspects of the industrial development programme. In paragraphs 33 to 34 three points in particular are stressed. I will not mention them now, but I should like to ask the Minister whether or not the council has discussed them with the Minister or whether he has sought to follow up the points made in the Economic Council's own document.

The same report, in paragraph 27, says that youth unemployment remains a major problem in Northern Ireland; and it goes on to say: The number of unemployed 18–20 year olds is however rising … and is likely to expand as YTP trainees come onto the labour market". That is a point which is not only of concern in Northern Ireland but one that we make generally: that the trainees come off the scheme and thousands of them just go on to the labour market again.

The report comments that the number of young people on youth training programme schemes had fallen at January 1984 to nearly 1,500 less than the previous year. It comments that at November 1983 some 3,901 full-time places in the YTP were vacant. In paragraph 31—and I quote again, because their words are better than mine —they say: It appears that this low take-up rate is partly due to dissatisfaction with some aspects of the programme and partly due to over provision of places". I note that under Class II, Vote 5, some 16,000 places are available under four heads. Everybody welcomes training schemes, but there is always considerable disillusionment if, at the end of training schemes, no jobs are available for the great mass of young people.

Reference has already been made to the enterprise development unit. I should like to comment favourably on other schemes which are mentioned in Class II, Vote 5. I have referred on previous occasions to the Enterprise Ulster Scheme, a direct labour organisation which deals with environmental and amenity projects. I note from the Estimates that the intention is to provide an average of 1,000 jobs in 1984–85, which will be of special interest to manual workers. Under this scheme, manual workers are recruited from the unemployed who have been registered as unemployed for a minimum of nine months. The cost of that scheme is comparatively low, at £7 million.

I have asked on previous occasions about the position when, as matters stand at present, the scheme ends on 31st March 1986. The noble Viscount, Lord Long, kindly told me that the decision as to whether or not to extend the life of the scheme is expected to be taken by the end of this year. In view of the number of jobs especially reserved for persons who have been out of work for at least nine months, I hope that the scheme will be continued.

The other scheme is Action for Community Employment. The scheme provides temporary employment for useful projects of benefit to the community for the long-term unemployed. The estimate is that there will be 2,900 jobs during the current year, at a cost off 131/4 million. I hope it will not be overlooked that Enterprise Ulster, Action for Community Employment and LEDU all cost, per place, far less than the cost to the state of an unemployed man for a period of 12 months. All these jobs are of value to the community. Therefore, I would stress not just the LEDU scheme but all three schemes.

As is shown in the April report of the Economic Council, to which I have already referred, public sector employment, including that in the nationalised industries, accounts for some 46 per cent. of the working population. When I mentioned this fact on a previous occasion the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, commented, "But look at the position that we have in Northern Ireland". I would put it the other way. If we did not have public sector employment of 50 per cent. of the employed population in Northern Ireland, we should be in a devil of a mess. I hope that that point will be noted.

The noble Lord. Lord Lyell, mentioned a public spending figure of just over £4.000 million. I note that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr. Chris Patten. has stated that, proportionately, public spending is 30 per cent. to 40 per cent. higher in Northern Ireland than in the United Kingdom as a whole. I make no criticism of that, but it is a point which ought to be noted in the light of other matters concerning Northern Ireland which we have discussed.

The noble Lord referred, under Class I, to the milk quota. The only point I would make is that Mr. Adam Butler, the Under-Secretary of State, made it quite clear in a Written Answer in another place on 24th May that the individual farmer must decide whether to reduce yields or sell off cows. However, he emphasised that there are no plans whatever to compensate farmers who choose to sell. I recognise that this is not just a Northern Ireland policy. It may be that the milk quota was necessary in the light of milk production, but I must emphasise that dairy farmers had very little notice of the quotas, particularly in view of the fact that they were given encouragement, not only in Northern Ireland but elsewhere, to expand dairy production. Emphasis ought to be laid on the fact that small farmers in Northern Ireland will be badly hit and that Mr. Adam Butler has said that there are no plans to compensate farmers.

Under Class II, Votes 1 and 2, I must express concern at the developments over the Lear Fan aeroplane and the failure of the 2.100 aircraft to achieve airworthiness certification. Perhaps the Minister could tell us what are the prospects for eventual certification, and. if certification is eventually granted. what are the prospects for the development of the aircraft and for employment possibilities in Northern Ireland. It was originally anticipated that about 2.500 jobs would be created as a result of the construction of the aircraft. Now we understand that what is left of the workforce—just 350 people—will be laid off on I st July.

May I ask the Minister about the total amount of governmental financial assistance so far given. The Sunday Times of 27th May stated that one of the partners in the consortium had said that it definitely will not provide further money that may be required for the project unless there is further Government investment. Therefore, I must ask the noble Lord whether there is any doubt that if certification is given for the aircraft. production will take place in Northern Ireland.

In a Northern Ireland Office press release on 31st May of a speech made by Mr. Adam Butler in the United States I notice that he said: Our agreement with the company requires it to develop its priorities in Northern Ireland with a view to their becoming the principal facility for the production of the Lear Fan, and there is no change in that agreement". However, on 11th June, at col 661 in the other place, Mr. Butler said: On the other hand, there is no commitment in the agreement that United Kingdom taxpayers' money should not go to Reno. The agreement is simply that money shall be provided to develop and produce an aircraft up to certain sums and that the development work is being carried out in Reno". Can the Minister kindly put this in simple terms? If there is certification, will the aeroplane be manufactured in Northern Ireland?

Under Class II, Vote I, in the last appropriation order debate I raised the reported proposal that the EEC's economic and regional committee had suggested that an industrial development zone should be promoted by a new cross-border agency, backed by the IDA in the Republic and by the IDB in Northern Ireland. In a written reply to me the noble Viscount. Lord Long, said that the matter was being studied but that the Government had not yet reached a conclusion. May I ask the noble Lord whether there are any developments in the consideration that is being given to that proposal?

Naturally we are very pleased by the developments and achievements of Short's and Harland and Wolff, to which the Minister referred. They come under Class II, Vote 3. During the last appropriation debate I sought an assurance that no consideration was being given to taking Shorts out of the public sector. Once again I had a written reply from the noble Viscount, Lord Long. These answers were given in letter form because of the limited time that was allocated to that appropriation order debate. The noble Viscount, Lord Long, said: I can, however, confirm that there are no immediate plans to treat the company in this way". But in an oral Answer in another place on 26th April, Mr. Adam Butler said at col. 876: A decision has yet to be taken. There is no reason why, under certain conditions and in pursuit of the Government's overall policy on privatisation, the company should not be considered for reversion to private ownership in due course". I should like to ask the noble Lord what that means. What could be "the certain conditions" to which the Minister referred? How much public money has already been put into the development of Shorts? A poor view would be taken by many people in this country if, after public money has been put into Shorts, it pulls round, starts to be a very successful development for the Province and is then sold off. If it is sold off, will there be any repayment of the public money which has been put into the undertaking? Dealing still with Vote 3, we understand, under mineral exploration grants, that a licence has been granted for Has any agreement been made with the Northern Ireland Electricity Service? What effect would lignite supplies have on electricity supplies and charges? Also, will the use of lignite have any adverse effect on supplies which may or may not be received through the National Coal Board?

Under Class III, Vote 1, there is a £12 million deficit support to gas undertakings and loans of £8 .5 million towards the introduction of natural gas. I note what the Minister has said about the situation concerning Kinsale gas. There may be some who thought that there should have been a pipeline from the mainland. But having gone so far, with the deveopment of a pipeline to Dublin and a pipeline from there to the Province, and hearing in mind that we are talking about building up trust and confidence between the North and the South. then it could be a blow if the scheme falls through. I hope that everything will be done to avoid it falling through.

At the last appropriation debate, I raised under Class IV, dealing with transport, the question of possible streamlining of Customs clearance facilities on the main Newry-Dundalk road. I understand that since then the Under-Secretary of State met a deputation led by the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. I am very pleased to note that fact, but can the Minister say what action has been taken since then, and whether the position has improved?

The last point I have to make concerns Class X, Vote 2, in respect of non-contributory benefits. I note that the appropriation is for more than £413 million, of which £281 million is for supplementary benefits. Looking at the introductory notes, I find on page seven that the expected increase in the number of people receiving benefit is mainly due to the proportion of unemployed who will require supplementary benefit. In 1984–85 they will total 78 per cent., compared with 76 per cent. over the past 12 months. It is stated that the reason is the increase in the number of unemployed who have exhausted entitlement to unemployment benefit. They total 136,000 individuals.

Under this same heading I find that more than 139,000 tenants in Housing Executive and private rented properties are receiving rent rebates or rent allowances, and the same number are receiving rate rebates. When one looks at those figures, one can readily understand the statements recently made by a Minister, during an address given in Northern Ireland, concerning the social and economic problems existing in the Province. Many of these are associated with the factors we were discussing last night and the constitutional issues of violence in Northern Ireland. The figures show the very serious position, not only of the unemployed, but also in respect of the conditions of a large number of people living in the Province.

7.33 p.m.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I too, should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for introducing this order so clearly. I have six questions to put to him. Earlier this year I paid my first visit ever to Londonderry. It was distressing in that fine city to remember that even its name is a cause of division. Chalked up in many places was the message, "It's Derry, not Londonderry"; but for the moment, I shall duck that one. It was also sad to see the two great cathedrals on opposing banks and to recall that they, alas, are symbols of great divisions between the communities and not of a great, mutually-supportive unity.

My colleague Stephen Ross and I were taken to see the new bridge over the River Foyle, north of the city, which the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, said is nearing completion. It is a beatiful and admirable example of engineering, but someone (I forget who) whispered in my ear that it was to a great extent a valueless piece of work, launched by the then Mr. William Whitelaw to help ease the unemployment situation. My question to the Minister is this: can be refute that suggestion and give an estimate of what traffic is expected to use the bridge daily?

A little time ago we looked around the De Lorean car works, seeing it in full production. To use a cliche, it seemed to be a miracle of engineering. What worries me is that such marvellous schemes are put in hand but turn out to be of no long-term value.

My second question is: can we have the latest information on the Lear Fan project? The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, spoke on this matter at some length, and so I shall not repeat his questions; but it is a worrying position.

Thirdly—and the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, referred to this matter—I shall be grateful for more information about Short's and Harland and Wolff. It is good that we have been able to congratulate both firms on obtaining impressive new orders. Can the noble Lord tell the House how near each firm is to being out of the red? I understand that there are no plans at present to denationalise Short's. The noble Lord, Lord Underhill. mentioned this, and I raised the same point in the last debate. Does that mean that it is not sufficiently prosperous for the Government to consider such action at present?

Fourthly, in another place the Minister, Mr. Adam Butler, in referring to the housing situation in the Province, said: It is estimated that unfitness levels have already been reduced to about 9 per cent."— [0fficial Report, Commons, 11/6/84; col. 654.] Can the noble Lord kindly clarify what seems to be still a very serious situation? What does "unfitness" mean in these circumstances? Is nearly 10 per cent. of the housing considered totally unfit for human habitation?

Fifthly—and the noble Lords, Lord Lyell and Lord Underhill, both referred to this —it is accepted that public expenditure per head in the Province is higher than elsewhere in the United Kindom. Can the Minister give comparative figures for Northern Ireland and the mainland?

Sixthly—and, again, both noble Lords referred to this—it is a sad fact that the Province has a growing population of working age, which makes worse an already very serious unemployment situation. Can the Minister give comparative figures for those leaving full-time education for, say, the past three years? I shall be most interested to hear the noble Lord's replies.

7.37 p.m.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, for having been courteous enough to write to me in advance, giving notice of this debate and seeking my views as to the points I might raise. I also owe him an apology, because I omitted to welcome him to his comparatively new post on the Front Bench. We have, of course, met on a couple of occasions across the table at Stormont Castle, but yesterday was the first time that I had seen him as the Government's Front Bench spokesman, and I apologise for my oversight.

Almost two years ago when his predecessor, the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, held that post, I was able to make obeisance to him as I had fagged for him when we were both at school together near Slough. It would have been an even more happy coincidence if I were now able to boast that the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, had fagged for me when we were at the same school, but, regrettably, the discrepancy in our ages is too great—and in his favour, I may say. Furthermore, it is possible that we were not under the same tutor. Nevertheless, he is very welcome and I hope he will find himself at home in Northern Ireland where, even if we are not famous for every good thing, perhaps the hospitality of the Province does have a favourable reputation.

Lord Lyell

Hear, hear!

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, Class I of the appropriation order covers the thorny subject of agriculture, which is perhaps causing more concern in the Province than anything else at the moment. Much has been said about it. but I am afraid that we on the Northern Ireland Assembly Agriculture Committee continue to adhere to the view that we have been sold short so far as the milk quota is concerned. This view is reinforced by the Milk Marketing Board, whose full-time job it is to monitor and evaluate these matters. This opinion is reinforced by a telegram dated 13th June from the European Commissioner, Mr. Poul Dalsager, and addressed to the chairman of the committee, the Rev. Dr. Ian R. K. Paisley, whom God preserve. In the telegram Mr. Dalsager says: The reserve quantity of 65.000 tonnes [of milk] allocated to Northern Ireland should be added to the total of reference quantities fixed for buyers or producers of Northern Ireland in accordance with Article 2.2 of Council Regulations of the EEC etc.". That reinforces the point that the extra quantity of 63,000 tonnes which we were allocated has not gone directly to Northern Ireland but has been diluted because it has been allocated throughout the entire United Kingdom quota. I could go on about this for a considerable length of time, but I shall not do so because there are other points to which I wish to make reference.

I may say that this causes considerable concern and I would therefore say that there are three things that need to be done as far as agriculture is concerned. First, while we know that the United Kingdom quota cannot be changed, at least it ought to be re-allocated so that Northern Ireland receives this bonus of 65,000 tonnes which it was promised. Secondly, I think that a more realistic buy-out scheme ought to be introduced. What has been suggested so far, as far as I know, is £650 per 5,000 litres for any farmer who goes out of dairying. This contrasts unfavourably with the figure that we have been given of about £1,200 in Germany. If people are going to be induced to go out of milk there must be a real incentive for them so to do.

Having done that, the third thing that is needed is to provide a viable alternative for farmers in Northern Ireland. If they go out of milk, what future is there in beef? We do not know. The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield was floating the idea that we should be looking into crops such as oil seed rape, but unfortunately we are disadvantaged in this respect because there is no plant in Northern Ireland for processing oil seed rape. It has to be sent to Liverpool, which means that we are at a disadvantage by comparison with growers on the mainland. I have suggested before now that the Industrial Development Board should look into the possibility of setting up an oil seed rape processing board in Northern Ireland which would provide some employment, apart from making this crop more viable. As yet, no positive response has been received.

Those are the three points which I think ought to be noted and to which Her Majesty's Government ought to give careful attention. But, without wanting to be nasty about it, I must say that the most dissappointing element is the degree of uncertainty which has existed in the agricultural industry since the spring of this year. We do not know what the total affect of clawback on the variable premium for beef is going to be. I think that a lot of farmers are going to get nasty shocks when the autumn comes and when they are penalised by the levy on the excess milk that they have produced. The beef market may be glutted by cows which have been culled. The autumn is going to be a very difficult time and I am sorry to say that, as an elected representative in Northern Ireland, I am not alone in feeling that to a certain extent we have been let down by Her Majesty's Government because of this uncertainty, because we are unable to explain to our constituents exactly what is the position. We are made to look stupid.

Even those of us who are not members of the Conservative Party thought, when that party achieved its resounding victory in the general election last year, that at least we would have strong government and that, even if we did not like everything that was done, at least we would know what was being done and why it was being done. It is disappointing that in the field of agriculture so far that does not seem to be the case. I sincerely hope that the noble Lord—and I know that it is not his direct responsibility—will use his good offices to try to get the situation clarified as soon as possible.

To turn now to Class II, I think that reference has been made to this already on more than one occasion in your Lordships' House. That is, every incentive ought to be given towards self-help in job creation. A shining example of this is Enterprise Carrickfergus, which in fact was initiated by one of my colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly who is a member of Carrickfergus Borough Council representing my party. That has been a remarkable success and has received good support not only from local industry but from Her Majesty's Government as well. This is much to be welcomed. I therefore ask why it is that the Department of Economic Development has been dragging its feet so much over the suggested information technology unit in Comber, County Down.

A local voluntary committee has been set up with a view to promoting this. First of all, the department said that there would not be a demand for it, but the committee managed to raise funds and put a single advertisement in the daily press and in the local press. That attracted something like 75 inquiries. If a single advertisement will attract that sort of interest, a more widely spread publicity campaign surely would provide more than enough applicants for training at such a centre —which, I am told, would cost about £200,000 (which is roughly the same as a youth training programme centre), would provide something like 30 jobs a year for young people and, more important still, would train those young people so that with computer technology they would be better able to take permanent jobs having been through the course. Furthermore, such a centre, which is geographically ideally suited in Comber, would be of spin-off assistance to other business and commerce by being able to provide services free to program the various requirements for the services and products of that industry and commerce.

Under Class III, we welcomed the information we were given last year about the piping of natural gas from Kinsale but the Minister responsible, Mr. Adam Butler, gave us some disquieting news recently and the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, has substantiated that news this afternoon: that whereas we had been led to believe that the agreement with the Government of the Republic originally had been something that was signed, sealed and tied up, we are now told that it was not an agreement but just an understanding —and this pulls the carpet from under the feet of those who were trying to resuscitate the gas industry in Northern Ireland. The gas undertakings had been hanging on by a thread. The Kinsale project looked as though a lifeline was being provided. Sales of gas appliances, cookers and so on had been declining and there was every prospect that they would begin to improve once again and that employment in the gas distribution industry would be ensured. Now there is doubt. Now it is going to be difficult to retain confidence, and this is something which is indeed to be deplored.

Under Class IV, once again I must deplore the delay in approving funds for the cross-city rail link in Belfast. I know I have raised this matter before and I was told that it could not be put high on the list of priorities. Since then Northern Ireland Railways announced a good result for last year. They have put a lot of effort into trying to improve passenger traffic on the Lame Line which is now somewhat isolated, and they have had a measure of success in so doing. If we just had the cross-city link, that line would be able to resume its position as a major part of the railway network.

Furthermore, those of us who are members of the Northern Ireland Assembly cannot help marvelling at the extensive road works which are taking place around about the Stormont building. It is not just resurfacing but road remaking, and we ask why? Those roads do not carry much traffic. The contract has been going on since, so far as I can remember, early April. Why is that necessary when there are so many more urgent roadworks that need to be carried out? I can quote two examples in my own constituency: the Salt Water Bridge is one. I wonder whether the noble Lord the Minister has had the opportunity to have a drink in that very congenial pub between Gray abbey and Portaferry. The second is the Shaw Road at Ballyhalbert which has been a standing problem for a long time. There is no footpath at all and the vehicular traffic has increased a great deal. The cars whizz within a matter of inches of the front doors of the houses and of anyone who is trying to get out.

Under Class VI, it is with some regret that, having received a favourable response from Her Majesty's Government to my previous representations about aid for listed buildings used for ecclesiastical purposes, we learned that the likely total amount of funds to be allocated per annum is going to be only £150,000. I am grateful to Her Majesty's Government for having agreed to bring Northern Ireland to the same point as the rest of the United Kingdom which has such buildings grant aided, but I respectfully suggest that £150,000 is not going to go anyway at all towards meeting the demands.

For instance, next Tuesday I am joining in launching an appeal for £350,000 for Down Cathedral. That is only one building which is suffering from dry rot. I know of two, if not three, other Church of Ireland buildings, which are in need of funds, and that is not to mention other denominations. Among conservationists —members of the Historic Buildings Council, members of the National Trust, members of the Ulster Architectural Heritage Society —the feeling is developing that as little as £150,000 per annum is hardly worth administering; in other words, the cost of administering it would hardly he justified. I regret having to say that but it is necessary to do so.

Finally, under Class II I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, saying that he includes the Official Report of the Assembly among his light reading and that he appreciates the nuances of the oratory which is delivered there. I hope that, reading between the lines, he finds that the mood in the Assembly is good on the whole. There is an ambience of bonhomie punctuated only rarely by acrimony, and acrimony not much worse than the sort of verbal abuse to which I was subjected in your Lordships' House last night. I hasten to add that abuse was not offered by the noble Lord the Minister but by a noble Earl, and I told him that I was going to say this. The mood is good, and the work in the committees I would say is particularly useful; not just for the scrutineering work they do but also because it has brought together politicians of different parties who have come to know and be on friendly terms with each other. Since our separated brethren, the official Unionists, have returned the situation has improved still further.

I am glad to say that I have become on friendly terms with members of the Democratic Unionist Party whom I would not have known before. We work together on the agriculture committee as a team as we do with the official Unionists now that they are back, and as we would do with the SDLP if they would just return. The SDLP would be welcome: they would find that they would not be up against people who would reject or spurn them in any way; they would be part of the team and they would find they would be working in concert with the rest of us for the common good of the people of Northern Ireland. I realise Mr. Hume's difficulty because he went into the Assembly election on the abstentionist ticket, but I wish now that we have got the Forum report and the European election behind us that he would try to find some way of coming back. My party would certainly facilitate him in any way possible and assist him to get off whatever uncomfortable hook he finds himself on.

As I say, the mood in the Assembly is good. I try to miss no opportunity to harass, to irritate and to mock the reverend and honourable Member for North Antrim who is chairman of the agriculture committee. He takes it, I may say, in the best of good humour and reciprocates with quick witted repartee. I shook his hand the day before yesterday and congratulated him on having obtained a record number of votes in the European election. So, contrary to the impression that noble Lords may have from the media reports, the mood in the Assembly is good.

I therefore urge Her Majesty's Government not to lose their nerve but to let others lose their nerves. The official Unionists lost their nerve over the boycott. They have come back. We welcomed them; we did not jeer at them. Let us hope that the SDLP will do the same. In the meantime, let not Her Majesty's Government over the coming Recess allow any doubt to enter into the future of the Assembly because as far as our party is concerned —and I think I can truthfully say as far as the DUP is concerned —we are going to do our utmost to keep it going, to make it successful and bring it to a stage whereby at least a measure of devolution can be granted. I apologise for taking so long.

7.59 p.m.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister just one question which does not need an immediate answer. It is a question which may ring in his ears in these early pristine days while his mind is clear of other things.

May I congratulate the noble Lord the Minister on his appointment and assure him of our prayers. We know of his humanity, cheerfulness and Christianity. He has a lot going for him and we support him. I am pleased to say that because I believe that many of us are praying for him.

I speak as someone who was immensely helped by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, and who has family interests in the North. Will the British Government seek to overcome the isolation which seems to me to be one of the most crippling facets in the problem of our relationship with the North? I throw in these suggestions. I wonder whether it might be possible to consider some way of encouraging lower air fares so that more people may be able to travel backwards and forwards. Secondly, can more visits of schoolchildren from the North be encouraged? Whenever I meet schoolchildren here in the Palace I make sure of talking with them.

Thirdly. I ask the Government to encourage, without pressing. of course, the BBC to continue its magnificent "Songs of Praise" programmes from the North. which open the eyes of many people to the loveliness and beauty of that part of our country.

Fourthly, in this Christian Heritage Year the Government should do all they can to encourage publicity concerning tourism so that those who have never been to the North may find that it is one of the most lovely and, in perhaps 93 per cent. of the acreage, the most peaceful of all parts of our nation. My one question, therefore, is simply to ask the noble Lord the Minister to do all he can to encourage the overcoming of isolation between the North and the mainland.

8 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I have listened with no little interest and with gratitude to the kind words that have been spoken by the right reverend Prelate, the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, and the noble Lord, Lord Underhill; especially on this occasion which is my first major effort on a very far-ranging and wide-ranging debate which concerns so many people in Northern Ireland and so many subjects which are vital to the life of the Province.

I shall try to reply —as I hinted in my earlier remarks —to as many as possible of the points which have been made this evening and of which your Lordships were kind enough to warn me in advance. I am still a relative neophyte at coping with the wave upon wave of paper that arrives and if I miss any points I assure your Lordships that it is in no way a discourtesy. We shall very carefully cull everything that has been said tonight, including the small details raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath. I shall cover all these points when replying to the questions he asked.

As I pointed out during my introductory speech, we hope that the prospects for the Northern Ireland economy are seen to be encouraging. I stress to your Lordships that many commentators have suggested that Northern Ireland should get more public expenditure. This facet was referred to by the noble Lord. Lord Underhill, and other commentators have been quick to suggest the need for additional funds in particular areas. But few of these commentators and these ideas that flow in have been able to suggest or point to where any corresponding savings can be found to fund these increases in public expenditure.

We agree that Northern Ireland has special problems in social and economic as well as in security matters. In recognition of those problems —a point raised by the noble Lord. Lord Underhill —the Government spend substantially more per head of the population than in the rest of the United Kingdom; between 30 and 40 per cent. more. We believe that that is a measure of the Government's commitment to Northern Ireland. Therefore, we believe it is important that the argument should concentrate on whether we are spending the available money in the best possible way and whether we have our priorities right.

I stressed earlier that our priorities are, first, law and order; then industrial support and development; followed, in the social and environmental field, by the housing programme. The industrial development programme has been designed to help strengthen and expand the industrial and commercial base in Northern Ireland. By this means we hope to deal with the economic problems of the Province and to continue the fight against unemployment. However, I am very conscious that the unemployment situation is very serious. Indeed, many people in Northern Ireland have been unemployed for over a year. Certain measures have been introduced in an effort to alleviate their situation.

During the current financial year the Government propose to make available an average of at least 4,000 jobs specifically for the long-term unemployed in what we call Action for Community Employment projects and also in Enterprise Ulster. We were grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. This commitment represents an increase of some 250 jobs on the combined total for these schemes last year.

I appreciate that there is concern about the rate of supplementary benefit which is payable to the longterm unemployed where only those who are over 60 years of age are eligible for the higher long-term scale rate. However, I emphasise that social security is handled essentially on a United Kingdom basis and, therefore, this is not merely a Northern Ireland feature. The cost, rather than the principle of extending the scheme, is the main obstacle. This is in the region of an extra £500 million a year which would be needed for the United Kingdom as a whole. I am sure this subject will feature during the current review of the supplementary benefit scheme.

I turn as briefly and as accurately as I can to the questions which have been raised by your Lordships during the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, opened the bowling and, if I may say so, he was particularly accurate, relevant and courteous. I congratulate him on the clarity with which he has examined the Votes: he has clearly done a great deal of homework. The noble Lord referred to the report from the Economic Council. The Government welcome this report as. indeed, we welcome all contributions to the debate on how we can allocate our public expenditure. I am happy to assure the noble Lord that we intend to use the report of the council to inform our work on the 1984 public expenditure survey. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has indicated to the chairman of the council that we will comment in detail on the report later this year.

The noble Lord had one or two things to say on the milk quotas, as did the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath. I shall come to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, later but. first, briefly reply to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. The noble Lord referred to the statement earlier this year of my right honourable friend the Minister of State. Mr. Butler, that there were no plans to compensate those who disposed of dairy cows. In fact, as the noble Lord will be aware, since then a scheme to compensate farmers who wish to give up milk production has been announced by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 25th May this year in recognition of the special needs of Northern Ireland. The scheme provides for 5 per cent. of that quota for Northern Ireland to be bought up. This is over a period of five years at a cost of £8.5 million, as opposed to the mere 21/4 per cent. of that quota which is available for redistribution in Great Britain. The quota which is to be released by this method will be used to help the small milk farmers and the special cases.

The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, also raised the eternal problem of unemployment and jobs. He rightly referred to the problem of unemployment in the Province and mentioned programmes such as the LEDU and the youth training programmes. These spearhead our attack on the problem. I shall, I am afraid, have to write to the noble Lord on the detailed points he raised, but I assure your Lordships that we are taking all the measures we can to create greater employment stability. If I may raise one more point on unemployment, the drive for new jobs, whether by the IDB or the LEDU, is not constrained, and nor has it been constrained in the past, by any lack of cash available to the promotion agencies.

The noble Lord also raised the problem of lignite. As he will be aware, and as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, and other noble Lords will be aware, the Government have already commissioned and received a report from specialist energy consultants on the potential uses for lignite. In addition, we are examining very carefully the possibility of using lignite in the generation of electricity as part of a review which is currently being carried out on the future generation strategy for the Northern Ireland electricity service.

The question of converting any power stations to use lignite is one of the options which we are currently considering as part of this major review. The mining company for lignite and the Northern Ireland electricity service are naturally in close consultation about the technical aspects of using lignite for electricity generation. but I am afraid that I have to say that it is still very early days. I understand that the private developer of the deposits intends to concentrate in the short term on analysing, and testing a bulk sample of lignite, but this particular phase is likely to take up to two years. Until all these tests have been completed, it is unlikely that the company will be able to determine the commercial and industrial potential of these deposits.

The noble Lord also raised the question of Short's. I have to say that there is no change from the position that was set out in the Statement by my right honourable friend Mr. Butler, when, on 26th April, he said that the Government had yet to take a decision on whether to return Short Brothers to the private sector, or indeed what would be the continuing position of Short's. I am sure that the noble Lord will be aware that, as with any other company in this field, our aid for Short's —if we take, for example, launch aid for the SD.360 and aid for research and development in that and in other fields —is all geared to stabilise the performance of Short's and to enhance its profitability.

The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, raised the question of the certification and production in Northern Ireland of the Lear Fan. The management of the company remains entirely confident that it will obtain a certificate of airworthiness for the aircraft. This is forecast for February 1985. The greatest security for the future of the Northern Ireland operation will be the profitability of the enterprise. The financial assistance agreement specifically requires the company to continue to develop its Northern Ireland operation with a view to its becoming the principal production unit for the Lear Fan 2.100 and to retain it as such except in extreme commercial circumstances beyond its control. I hope that that will be of some help to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, and to the noble Lord, Lord Hampton.

The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, also asked me about cross-border economic development. I am able to tell him and your Lordships that the Government have continued to examine that complex issue in the context of a proposal for a feasibility study of a cross-border integrated operation. The noble Lord will be aware, as I am sure will the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, that this was put forward by the Foyle Donegal Strabane Co-ordinating Group. This operation was supported by the European Commission, which naturally sought the views of the United Kingdom and the Government of the Republic of Ireland about this proposal. I am able to tell the noble Lord that discussions are under way between the Government and interested parties. It is our intention to reach a decision as soon as we possibly can.

The noble Lord, Lord Underhill, also raised the question of the Newry customs post. I think that there are several details here. I wonder in the interests of time whether the noble Lord will permit me to put the details, which amount to about a page and a half, in written form, and I think that would meet the approval of your Lordships this evening.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, raised several interesting points. First. may I just take two minutes of your Lordships' time to thank him for his very kind welcome? He may have forgotten that 10, 11 and even 12 years ago I was speaking from the Back Benches here on Northern Irish affairs. I think that I made eight or nine speeches on the green, the British and other dimensions. I always admired his forthright delivery and his immense knowledge then, and I admire it greatly now. I understood that the husband of my noble friend Lady Trumpington taught the noble Lord at the school to which he referred. I am afraid that that privilege was denied to me. He has mentioned that hospitality is paramount. Indeed, I have found that in my very short stay so far in Northern Ireland. Not a hundred miles from the residence of the noble Lord is one institution where last week I was offered whipped or pouring cream. I surprised the management by requiring both, since I regarded that as my duty.

I stress to the noble Lord, and indeed to your Lordships, that I read the proceedings in the Assembly in Northern Ireland with great interest. I try to read them with the utmost seriousness. Your Lordships may not be aware that the noble Lord is a very distinguished Member of that Assembly, being a Deputy Speaker. and naturally features in many of the serious discussions. Those of your Lordships who, like me, take the trouble to read this may find that just from time to time one has to ask a few questions about the detailed political nuances and little remarks that are made around that Chamber. Certainly I, the Government and indeed your Lordships salute the Assembly, and, above all, we salute the noble Lord for his continuing efforts in that political institution and for all the work that he does.

The noble Lord naturally put me on my mettle about milk quotas and the schemes for dairy farmers. I hope that he will accept that the levels of special aid for agriculture were given in the Statement of my noble friend Lord Mansfield on 17th February. I stressed in my comments to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. that a scheme to compensate farmers who wish to give up milk production was announced on 25th May. I also mentioned the figures for the outgoers' scheme.

Nobody who has been in any way concerned with Northern Irish affairs over the past two months, least of all myself, could be unaware of the extremely strong feelings which have been aroused by the milk quotas. As the noble Lord stresses, we have met at Stormont Castle twice, indeed three times. I assure the noble Lord. all your Lordships and everybody in Northern Ireland that the Government are taking that problem very seriously indeed. Even as I am speaking, I know that there are continuing efforts being made both here and in Belfast to see what we can do about this problem, which, the noble Lord will accept, affects agriculture in Northern Ireland possibly to a slightly greater extent than it affects agriculture in the rest of the United Kingdom. Certainly this is what people in Northern Ireland believe, and it is our opinion that they have a case.

The noble Lord also mentioned job creation. The Government have placed considerable emphasis on the promotion of indigenous industry in Northern Ireland. It was my right honourable friend Mr. Butler who last year launched the local enterprise programme. The programme is designed to reinforce the existing generous and comprehensive range of assistance available. Secondly, we want to provide a framework and to encourage and to maximise local self-help job creation initiatives. This programme is administered by the Province's small firms agency LEDU. The principal components comprise a formation grant of up to £2,000 a year and grant aid of 50 per cent. towards the purchase, refurbishment and sub-division of premises for small businesses. Although the scheme has been in existence for a short period, we believe that it has been extremely successful. This was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Underhill. We are very encouraged with its success.

The noble Lord also raised the question of the information technology unit at Comber. As the noble Lord will know, I read the Assembly reports. One member of the Assembly found considerable difficulty pronouncing that word. The member of the Assembly came from north Antrim, and various other members of the Assembly could not understand his pronunciation. My colleague, the Minister of State, who has responsibility for the youth training programme in Northern Ireland, is considering the facilities for computer-aided training in the total YTP provision and also the requirements for the information technology centres in this particular region. The Comber high tech proposal will be examined in the context of this overall survey of needs.

The noble Lord raised the question of the cross-city rail link. We appreciate the benefits of the link, But the implementation of any project of this magnitude —the noble Lord will realise that it is a fair size —must necessarily be related to the availablility of funds and other expenditure priorities. We are satisfied that the continuing deferment of the cross-harbour bridges is appropriate having regard to the foreseeable traffic needs of Belfast but, I am afraid, also to our other priorities for public expenditure.

The noble Lord raised the question of car parking. I had heard that this problem arose in the village —or is it the town? —called Crossgar. I am afraid that I have not been there. I do not know whether it is in the noble Lord's constituency. I am advised that the funds that we have available are limited. But we do intend to continue to provide off-street parking facilities in towns and in villages throughout Northern Ireland on a priority basis. We have to take account of the present on and off street spaces, and indeed the commercial demand which is calculated on retail sales.

Provision of car parking facilities for amenity purposes is a local authority function. I do not therefore think that I can comment on it. I would, however, mention that the enforcement of waiting restrictions in Northern Ireland is the responsibility of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Its resources are already fully committed. The department is reluctant to introduce further waiting restrictions except in the case of especially serious needs.

The noble Lord mentioned the problem of grant aid to listed churches. The figure off £150,000 a year has to be borne in mind when considering the current level of funding for repairs to listed churches in Great Britain and the amount available for listed secular buildings in Northern Ireland. If we take account of the numbers of listed buildings in the various regions of the United Kingdom, we believe that the figure for Northern Ireland is comparable in proportion. I would stress that the entire £ 150,000 is expected to be available for repairs to the fabric of historic churches and is separate from any costs involved in administering this particular scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, was kind enough to warn me in advance of the points that he might raise. I thank him for his speech and for the attention that he paid to the figures before us. The noble Lord mentioned his interest in the Foyle Bridge. I regret that this is one area that I have not yet visited. It is an important addition to the road network in the northwest of the Province and also to the infrastructure for the social and economic development of Londonderry. The bridge, as the noble Lord is no doubt aware, is partially open to traffic. I understand that traffic flows of up to 10,000 vehicles a day have already been recorded. By the end of the summer, the bridge will be fully opened to traffic. The noble Lord raised the question of traffic flows. When partially opened, we understand that it is up to 10,000 vehicles a day. As to the total capacity of the bridge when fully opened, I am afraid that I do not know the answer. If I am able to discover a figure, even an approximate figure, I will write to the noble Lord.

The noble Lord raised the question of Lear Fan, which I hope that I have covered.

The noble Lord asked me about unfitness. I should like to give him a brief definition of unfitness in relation to housing. The definition is given in Article 46 of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1981. This provides that a dwelling shall be deemed to be unfit if it is so far defective in one or more of the following respects as not to be reasonably suitable for occupation: repairs, stability, freedom from damp, internal arrangement, natural lighting, ventilation, water supply, drainage and sanitary conveniences and facilities for the preparation and cooking of food and the disposal of waste water. I shall certainly ensure that we cull through the remarks of the noble Lord, and if I have missed anything, we shall reply in writing.

The noble Lord also raised the problem of the statistics of the growing population of working age. According to the census of population, between 1971 and mid-1983, the latest available estimate, the population of working age, classified as 16 years and over, increased by approximately 10 per cent. from 1,034,000 to 1,138,500. There is a table which I shall send to the noble Lord showing that the figure for males rose by 11.6 per cent. and for females by 8.8 per cent., making a total overall of 10 per cent.

I have, I am afraid, somewhat overstayed my welcome in explaining all that I have set out. I have tried to cover as many of the points that were raised as possible. I assure your Lordships that we shall read carefully the points that have been made. The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, will agree, I think, that this is the only chance annually that we get to discuss these Estimates. There may be another later in the year. I am not sure about the procedures, but doubtless I shall be soon. I hope that I have been able to satisfy your Lordships. I am sorry that I am unable to answer the questions of the right reverend Prelate. I shall, however, reply to his three questions later.

I should like finally to thank all those noble Lords who have participated in an interesting debate. I appreciate the concerns that have been expressed. Some of these concerns bear on a number of difficult problems that face the people of Northern Ireland. I have tried in my remarks to re-emphasise the commitment of the Government to policies that create conditions of greater economic and social stability. I beg to move.

On Question, Motion agreed to.