European Transonic Wind Tunnel (Hansard, 19 June 1984)

The Earl of Bessborough
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Cockfield)
My Lords, the Governments of France, Germany, Holland and Her Majesty's Government have all made formal commitments to support the construction of the European Transonic Wind Tunnel (ETW). The selection of a suitable site is currently under active and detailed consideration by the four Governments. Her Majesty's Government for their part will continue to seek to bring the selection process to a speedy and satisfactory conclusion.

The Earl of Bessborough
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Does he agree that it is highly desirable that we should have these facilities for Europe, regardless of where they are actually situated, and that we should not be obliged always to have 150 recourse to facilities of this kind in the United States? Secondly, I wonder whether I may ask him this other question. Am I not right in thinking that it could be said that there are really two types of wind tunnel which it might he desirable to have in Europe: one, what might be called a digital wind tunnel, and the other a cryogenic or low temperature wind tunnel? If we do need these two, would it be helpful in negotiations to suggest that one might be located in one country and the other in another, since I understand it is not essential that they should both be located in the same place?

§ Lord Cockfield
My Lords, I entirely agree with the point made by my noble friend in the first part of his supplementary question. The important point is that these facilities should be available at the earliest possible date and Her Majesty's Government's efforts are directed to this end. I understand that this is, in fact, a cryogenic wind tunnel. So far as the digital wind tunnel is concerned, I gather that that is more a popular description rather than a scientific definition. Computational facilities are certainly required and I will draw the attention of the people concerned with the planning of this operation to the comments which my noble friend has made.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I am sure that the House will welcome the hopeful note in the noble Lord's answer, but is it not a fact that it is now, certainly, some 10 or 12 years since we seriously started talking about this? Is it not also a fact that within that period Europe has spent hundreds, if not thousands of millions of pounds on these wretched wine and butter mountains and is it not time we came to a decision? Also, may I ask the noble Lord what has happened to that imaginative concept of creating a European centre at Bedford, with the United Kingdom putting its present resources into a common pool?

§ Lord Cockfield
My Lords, so far as the first part of the noble Lord's question is concerned, I would regard a wind tunnel as a different project from a wine or butter mountain. This particular project has admittedly been under consideration for a very long time. The Governments of France and Germany committed themselves to proceeding in the autumn of 1982. We committed ourselves to proceeding in November 1982. The Government of Holland gave their agreement in the autumn of last year. We ourselves convened a conference of senior official representatives of the states concerned in February of this year and we are continuing to press this matter. I entirely agree that the sooner we get this satisfactorily resolved the better. There is no difference at all between the noble Lord and myself on this point. So far as the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question is concerned, I am not entirely clear what point he has in mind and perhaps he would let me know in more detail. But the crucial point is that this particular project should not be held up while we may be pursuing some wider and better project which may lie many years ahead.

§ Lord Beswick
My Lords, I should he glad to help the noble Lord about the Bedford project. But could he not be a little more cheerful when he says that he prefers a wind tunnel to a wine mountain?

§ Lord Cockfield
My Lords, we are dealing with the aeronautical industry rather than the gastronomic industry.