Certificate of Pre-Vocational Education (Hansard, 15 June 1984)

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the certificate of pre-vocational education is designed to provide a work-related course in schools and colleges for those who continue in education at 16 without clear vocational or academic objectives. It is therefore estimated that up to 100,000 young people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland could benefit from the CPVE. In the first place, it will subsume certain courses currently offered to over 40,000 young people by the Business and Technician Education Council, the City and Guilds of London Institute and the Royal Society of Arts. In addition, the CPVE is intended to replace the certificate of extended education currently taken by over 30,000 young people. Finally, it is hoped that the new relevant programme will be found attractive by young people who are not at present following appropriate courses at all.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Considering the various possibilities of the guilds and institutes being interested in this, can he give us an example of what subjects will be covered by this examination and, once the certificate has been obtained, the encouragement it could possibly give to school-leavers for their employability?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, in answer to the first part of my noble friend's supplementary question, I would draw his attention and that of the House to the booklet that I hold in my hand entitled, The Certificate of Pre- Vocational Education. It is a consultative document which is widely available at the moment and education authorities and others involved are considering what subjects should be part of the scheme. Rather than my going into a somewhat lengthy document which lists a number of subjects, I hope that my noble friend will be able to read it for himself.
So far as the second part of his supplementary is concerned, CPVE students will have had some work experience. They will have received careers guidance and a broad introduction to the demands of working life, and, in addition, students will have gained a better understanding of the basic economies of business and of the realities of industrial and commercial life. Records of achievement and personal profiles will provide employers with a valuable and detailed account of a student's personal and practical competencies. I am sure that with that background they will provide very good material indeed for employment.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, may I raise some questions which have resource implications? Can the Minister tell us what care has been taken to ensure that there are sufficient teachers with the adequate experience and training available for these courses? Can the Minister say something about the status of the scheme and the resources which will be available to the authorities? Would the Minister not also agree that this is going to place some great difficulty upon 17 year-olds who may very well fall between the very many stools in deciding which course to take?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, to answer the noble Lord's last supplementary question first, I do not think that there should be any difficulty at all for 17 year-olds in deciding which course they will be on. The following courses, offered full time for 16 to 17 year-olds, are already subsumed within CPVE on an interim basis. They are the foundation courses and vocational preparation (general) courses of the CGLI, the general awards of Btech, in the business field, the vocational preparation (clerical) and (distribution) and the basic clerical procedures course of the RSA. There are plenty of choices for them and I do not think that they will be confused.
So far as the teaching force is concerned, the document to which I referred has been widely distributed and allows the joint boards to consult with teachers, local authorities and employers; so the teachers are to be consulted and I see no reason why the teaching force in this country could not cope with it.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that many employers are a little sceptical about his examinations because of the lack of information that has been fed to them as to the viability of these examinations?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I hope that they will not be sceptical. By referring to this document today I hope that I may have drawn the attention of as many people to it as I possibly can. It is the consultative document issued on behalf of the Joint Board for Pre-Vocational Education. It is an extremely good and interesting document and it is open to people to give their views on it until (I think) 27th July; so there is still time for people in doubt to express their opinion.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, may I follow up the Minister's reply? It is all very well for that document to be lying in Elizabeth House but it ought to be on the employers' desks.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I think that that is a matter of practicalities. Even purely in terms of the postage costs involved in sending the document to a lot of people, some of whom may not be interested in it, it would be a somewhat worthless exercise. It must be for interested employers to write in and request copies of it.

§ Lord Mulley
My Lords, I think it is of value that my noble friend has raised this matter and that the Minister has replied. I hope that some publicity will 1376 come from it. Can the noble Lord give us some information as to the target date for starting these courses? Since no postage is involved, can he make sure that copies of the document are available to us through the Printed Paper Office? I do not know whether they are or not. And will he bring to the attention of his right honourable friend the great importance, stressed by my noble friend, of ensuring that it has the support of business, commerce and the trade unions; and—because most education authorities at all levels are greatly stretched as to teaching and teaching aids resources—will he ensure that this is borne in mind when future allocations of education funds are made?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am afraid that I am not aware whether or not it is available in the PPO. If any noble Lord who wishes to have a copy and has difficulty in getting hold of it will get in touch with me, I shall certainly try to arrange that he receives it as soon as possible. As I think I said in my last answer, the timetable is that the period of consultation will last until 27th July and will then be followed by the preparation of definitive arrangements to allow schools and colleges to introduce the new courses leading to the starting of the CPVE in September of 1985. I will certainly draw all that has been said to the attention of my right honourable friend, but I think it will be unnecessary because I know that he personally is very interested in the scheme and will be taking an active role at each stage as it progresses.