Parliamentary Democracy (Hansard, 4 June 1984)

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Lord President of the Council (Viscount Whitelaw)
My Lords, the Government have no proposals to reform the constitution of the House of Lords, or to alter the method of election to the House of Commons.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, has the noble Viscount's attention been drawn to the figures published by The Times on, I believe, 3rd May, which showed that of the total votes cast in the five by-elections since the last general election, the result was Labour in third place, with 27 per cent. of the votes cast, Conservatives in second place, with 33 per cent., and the Alliance well at the top, with 39 per cent.? Does the Leader of the House think it just that whereas 68,000 Conservative voters secured three representatives, a much larger number of 82,000 Alliance voters secured no representative at all?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, the rules of our elections are well known to everyone. We have—if it is the right phrase—played by these rules for a long time. I believe in playing by the rules of a particular game so long as they are the rules of the game. They are the rules of the game, and I would keep them that way.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is not the great merit of the present system that it produces a Government with the authority to govern? Is not that much more important than a mathematical following of rapidly varying fluctuations of opinion?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, not for the first time I agree with my noble friend.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, is it not true that since the war there have never been in this country a Government who commanded a majority opinion among the electorate? Is this a true reflection of democracy?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, this has been the method of election in this country for a very long time. I believe that on the whole it can be said to have stood 400 us well. If there was general agreement in the country on how to change it, it would be worth considering, but as no such agreement exists, I am a great believer in keeping traditions as they are until it is perfectly clear that there is a better way.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does not the noble Viscount agree that public opinion polls have shown that there is a very strong feeling that the system should be changed?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, the noble Baroness may be right, but the interesting thing is that everyone is keen to think about changes until someone produces some of the alternatives, which they do not like so much.

§ Lord Kennet
s: My Lords, is it not the case that the present Government party will continue to oppose proportional representation until it needs it in order to get in, and then it will be too late?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I see no reason to suppose that that proposition is in any way correct.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that so long as the other place is elected the way it is, it is very unlikely that any party which has a majority will want to change the system that put it there?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, having so recently come from another place I had better leave its Members to express their views and not try to say what I think their views would be. If I were to do that, I would think that my noble friend is right.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware of the warm respect in which he is held in all parts of the House for his personal role in introducing proportional representation in Northern Ireland? Why does he discriminate by giving justice to minorities in Northern Ireland and not in the rest of the United Kingdom?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, as I think I made clear at the time, and have always made clear since then—and while I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he said, not by a long way does everyone think that what I did in Northern Ireland was correct—I did that, particularly as regards proportional representation, because the situation in Northern Ireland is very different from that in the rest of the United Kingdom. I should add that it was not a full Parliament that I was proposing should be elected, in any sense of the word.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, since the Question on the Order Paper refers also to the House of Lords, would not my noble friend agree that many who now occupy this place unelected might not survive a process of election?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, having so recently moved from a place where I had to survive the process of an election to a place where I do not, I do not think I wish to return.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would the noble Viscount not agree that in the past few years the status of this House has won great respect right throughout the nation? One of the reasons for that is that it has proved to be no sycophant of the present Government. When it has thought that the Government should be defeated on issues it has not hesitated so to do.

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord as to the standing of this House, and I am very proud that it should be so, particularly as I happen to be its Leader. I am not always so proud when this House seeks to defeat the policies of the Government of which I happen to be a member.