The Long-Term Unemployed (Hansard, 25 July 1984)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the best way to help the long-term unemployed lies in winning orders for British business and industry both at home and abroad. A stable financial climate, increased competitiveness and greater productivity offer the best guarantee of sustainable growth in output and therefore in jobs.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I welcome the stock answer that the noble Earl the Minister has just given, but is he not aware, as I am sure he must be, that since 1982 1.1 million people have been classed as long-term unemployed and that that figure is still growing month by month? Is he also aware that within that figure 50 per cent. have been unemployed for over two years and 30 per cent. for over three years? Does he not understand that these people view themselves as now becoming engulfed in a reservoir of despair, or as the dust bowl of society? When are we going to get some answers from the Minister other than the stock ones that he uses to upbraid us in this Chamber?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I must say that I am rather sorry that the noble Lord charges me with repeating a stock answer, because I composed that Answer myself and have not seen it given in your Lordships' House before. It might interest the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick, and the House that someone close to the noble Lord's party politically, the new Prime Minister of France, has said that the chief reason for modernising the economy in France is to win the battle for jobs, that any real improvement in unemployment has to come through economic competitiveness and growth, and that the unemployment battle is likely to be difficult and prolonged. I find myself very much in agreement with what M. Fabius, the French Prime Minister, has said.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, is it not the case that the loss of long-term jobs is arising through the loss of coal-faces in the mining industry due to the strike? Is it not also the case that jobs in the steel industry, too, are being threatened by the strike?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, my noble friend is, as so often, wholly right. The fact is that in a difficult international climate—and a climate that is liable to remain difficult —every time we score an own goal we lose more jobs than goals.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, will the noble Earl not agree that all the indications are that many of the long-term unemployed will remain unemployed permanently? Is this not a consequence of the Government's policy, which is considered by them to be of benefit to the country? Is it not time, therefore, that long-term compassionate arrangements were made on a basis different from the present one?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I think it is very important that compassion begins at home and in the pocket. One of the best ways that we can all exercise compassion towards the long-term unemployed is to be modest in our own claims on the total share of resources, particularly those of us who work in the public sector. I do not accept that the outlook is as bleak as the noble Lord suggests, because the employed labour force in Great Britain is estimated to have increased by 47,000 in the first quarter of this year. This follows an increase of 112,000 in the fourth quarter of 1983. It is the fourth consecutive quarterly increase; and if, as I said earlier, we only abstain from scoring own goals, there is no reason why that increase should not continue.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that the number of people on the community programme represents less than 10 per cent. of those who have been unemployed for more than 12 months, and that even in the case of those aged under 25 the corresponding figure is only 17 per cent.? Will the Government consider making further provision under the community programme in some other way for this unfortunate group, particularly in the case of young people?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rochester, is certainly right that one of the great justifications of the community programme is that it exists not only to try to help the community through the work that is done in the interests of the community to improve the infrastructure and the like, but also to help mainly that third of the long-term unemployed who are under 25. That is why it is a valuable programme and an important part of the Government's efforts to deal with this very difficult problem. To help the other two-thirds of the long-term unemployed, as I have said to the noble Lord and the House, over the long-term we really have to get greater output, greater competitiveness and growth. It is impossible, I think, to provide ameliorating programmes to the extent that we should all like.

§ Viscount Massereene and Ferrard
My Lords, would my noble friend further agree that considerable numbers of these unemployed are engaged in casual labour? May I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that about a fortnight ago one of my few employees was on holiday strawberry picking, and suddenly almost every one of the 150 or so pickers vanished. He looked around and saw a man in a dark lounge suit with a briefcase who had just arrived in a car. My noble friend can draw his own conclusions.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I shall spend some of this afternoon, as I am sure will the House, trying to come to the same conclusion as my noble friend.

§ Lord Barnett
My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that it would be more honest to concede that on the Government's existing policies, whether stable or otherwise, the Government's own internal forecasts are that unemployment will continue to rise?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I think it is certainly true that there will continue to be a loss of jobs and a 287 loss of labour in some traditional industries. Labour is growing in some of the newer industries both manufacturing and service. The question is whether growth in the one can be fast enough to make up for the losses in the other. As I have said, this is a problem facing all governments in the Western world at the moment.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware of the exchanges with his noble friend Lord Elton arising out of a Question by the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, on 11th July about the relationship between unemployment and crime, especially between unemployment among young people and delinquency and crime? In that connection, would the noble Earl know whether the Home Department makes any estimate of the cost in terms of the investigation, the trial and the carrying out of the sentence on offenders, particularly young offenders who are unemployed? Would he accept that this is really a related question and not, "another question"?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am aware of such exchanges. Indeed, when I was the Minister in the Department of Employment concerned with these issues we wished to move towards greater training in the youth employment programmes, rather than palliative measures. I think all sides of the House would agree that the youth training scheme has been relatively successful in that regard.
I do not think it would be very meaningful for the Home Department to absorb costs and therefore deny resources to such client groups in the rest of the economy by undertaking the kind of exercise that the noble Lord suggests, which I also think would be extremely difficult. I cannot see that it would really come to a very useful conclusion. Of course common sense suggests to us that the devil finds mischief for idle hands.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, would the Government consider initiating a step-by-step approach to the problem of long-term unemployment by extending the long-term rate of supplementary benefit to those over 55 who have been unemployed for three years? They are 64,000 in number, I understand, and this would cost in the region of £10 million a year

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I have considerable sympathy for the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock. However, I think that, in a nutshell, the extent of the problem is that people want us, for the best of motives, to do more, but the act of doing more would deny others the resource they may need. My advice is that the cost of what the noble Lord suggests. would be closer to £480 million and, if I heard the noble Lord aright, that would not I think be a cost-effective way of tacking this problem.

§ Lord Kilmarnock
My Lords, may I suggest to the noble Earl that the figure of 64,000 people to which I referred, with an estimated cost of £10 million, has already been given by his noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I took him to suggest that we should 288 extend the long-term scale rate to the unemployed generally, and not to a particular age group within it.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, in a country which has almost the highest level of employment per 1,000 of the population of any country in the world, is employment for all those people who are now the long-term unemployed really achievable? Are we not going to be left with a very considerable residue of these people? Is it not time that we set about rethinking the whole question of who are these people and how they should be described? Certainly they should not be described as being in despair, or in the dustbin, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I agree that words such as "despair" and "dustbin" do not improve morale, and morale is very important, as we all know, when one is looking for work. The noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, is quite right to draw our attention to the fact that Britain has to be a very successful economy indeed to provide employment, given our resources, for as many as 87 per cent. of the work force, bearing in mind that the work force is large. But we want to be more successful still, and we want to solve—as others do—this awful problem.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, first of all, I did not use the word "dustbin"; I used the words "dust bowl". One can understand that situation only if one has actually stood in a dole queue recently and experienced the despair which those people face. They do not see any future.
But I want to confine my final supplementary question to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, which the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, did not deal with in answering my original Question. My Question referred to, increasing financial assistance to this group". Is the Minister aware that in another place there is on the Order Paper an early-day motion—an all-party one—with the main signatories being members of his own party? It refers to the Social Security Advisory Committee's recommendation that the long-term unemployed be immediately included in supplementary benefit. Is the noble Earl aware that this early-day motion is down on the Order Paper? Might he be prepared to support this proposal with his colleagues in another place?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I am always prepared to consider proposals, as are my colleagues. Further, I am always prepared to support proposals to deal with this problem, and even proposals which involve additional public spending, so long as noble Lords, wherever they sit, or honourable or right honourable Members, wherever they sit, suggest exactly what we should cut in order to provide additional resources.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that now an early-day motion is merely a piece of propaganda?

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I think I must be very cautious about any comments from this Box on procedures of any kind in another place.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that whether it be short term or long term, unemployment itself is a soul-destroying experience, and despair is a very mild word to describe the situation in which many people find themselves? I have been through it.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, it is precisely for that reason that it is, if I may say so, always lacking in responsibility to suggest that there is some easy way of dealing with this problem.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, would the noble Earl the Minister recommend to the Government the idea of increasing the scale of old-age pensions? That would enable many pensioners who are at present doing work to give it up, live on their pensions, and make their jobs available to those who are now unemployed.

The Earl of Gowrie
My Lords, I fear that the theory that there is a fixed body of jobs in the economy and that once one person vacates a job, another person fills it, is not the view of most experts in the labour market today.