European Elections: Voting Systems (Hansard, 24 July 1984)

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)
My Lords, the Government are satisfied that the outcome of the European elections in Great Britain and Northern Ireland was perfectly fair and democratic, bearing in mind the necessity to tailor electoral systems to the different needs of each part of the United Kingdom.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there will be widespread agreement that the system used in Northern Ireland was practical, fair and democratic? Can the noble Lord explain what drawbacks the Government saw in extending that system to the rest of the United Kingdom, apart from the fact that it would have robbed the Conservative Party of its surplus seats?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, there is also widespread agreement that the system employed in Great Britain was fair and democratic, and satisfactory in its results.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is it not a fact that, when the system of the single transferable vote was first introduced in Northern Ireland, there was a general understanding that the arguments of the special circumstances of Northern Ireland would never be used for extending the system to Great Britain? In addition, is not the Question on the Order Paper at fault in so far as each of the eight political groupings which contested the three seats in the Northern Ireland elections to the European Parliament put up only one candidate and at the end of the day, after the fourth count, the three who were elected were the same three as those who would have topped the poll as the first preferences?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right to say that Northern Ireland is different from the rest of the United Kingdom, and he is also right to say that the result of the election under that system was as it should have been.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is it not a fact that we went all round this course yesterday? Should we be going round it again today?

§ Lord Elton
Yes, My Lords; we also went round it two or three times in July last year. I think that it is an annual event.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, this is a matter of great importance to the affected minority. There has been a tradition among British Governments of different parties of paying some respect to the electoral rights of minorities. Is the noble Lord aware that the system in Northern Ireland did so pay respect to the rights of minorities, whereas the system in Britain meant that more than half the parties represented in the European Assembly scored fewer votes than the Alliance, which is not represented at all?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, if all the minority parties in Northern Ireland were to have been represented, there would, of course, have to have been more than three seats available to which to elect them. As to the remainder of the noble Lord's question, it is very difficult not to repeat all the arguments that I adduced yesterday. I think that the noble Lord is addressing a system which was advocated by one party during the last general election, when 70 per cent. of voters voted for other parties.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, as one who was once attracted to the idea of PR for the United Kingdom, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that, if we had that system, it is unlikely that any party would have an overall majority in another place, and we would probably therefore have a series of coalition Governments?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, that is, indeed, the prospect and it is an unattractive one, because the electors would then not know which Government they were electing or what programme would be put into effect.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the party of Screaming Lord Sutch is totally unrepresented in Parliament, and that this is a gross injustice to all those who have voted for him?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, as the person in question has a title, perhaps there is another solution to that deficiency.

§ Lord McNair
My Lords, is not the noble Lord treating this matter in a rather parochial manner? The Question refers to the European elections. Do we not have an obligation to agree an electoral system with our partners in the EEC, and will not the noble Lord take it from me that it is quite impossible to find anyone on the continent of Europe who regards our electoral system as anything but daft?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the noble Lord is right that we are under an obligation, and this we intend to honour. Perhaps the noble Lord has omitted to notice that other European countries also have difficulty in finding a uniform system with which they agree. Our obligation and theirs is to implement a uniform system when it is unanimously agreed. It was impossible to reach that agreement before the last European election. We hope that it will be possible to implement it before the next.

Lord Chelwood
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if we have to wait for a uniform system to be agreed by the Council of Ministers, we shall almost certainly have to wait until kingdom come, and that is not necessarily a very good reason for deciding that the present system of elections to the European Parliament cannot be improved upon?
Further, is my noble friend aware that it is not only Members of the Alliance Party who are slightly disturbed by the present position? Some of us recollect that in 1973 it was a Conservative Government who decided that the voice of the third party in the land should be heard in Strasbourg and Brussels, and they invited the Liberal Party to send two delegates—one from each House—to represent those views. Was that not a precedent about which some further thought should be given?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I think that it is a precedent which shows the complete good faith of the Conservative Party in this matter. Noble Lords in the Liberal Party must recognise that we believe that the people of this country should be heard, but we believe that they should be heard as a result of an electoral system with which they are familiar, or which is in conformity with those imposed by other European states. As yet there is no sign of that conformity emerging.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, would the Minister agree that it is also true that the results of the European elections only confirm what people voted for in the previous General Election? Of the major party groupings, the party which the electors of this country least want is the Alliance.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, it is difficult to answer that question without being discourteous to the Alliance Party.

§ Lord Ellenborough
My Lords, as the Liberal and Alliance Parties seem to think that proportional representation is such a marvellous idea, can not my noble friend elicit any information from them as to why Lloyd George and the Liberals did not introduce it during the many years they were in power earlier this century?

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, the sounds coming from the Liberal and Alliance Benches suggest that noble Lords have already anticipated my reply, which is that of course it did not become apparent how the effect of such a system would benefit their party until it became apparent that the existing system would never return a Liberal Government.