Schools' Curricula: Political Studies (Hansard, 23 July 1984)

§ Lord Gridley
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science set out the Government's views on these matters in a major speech in March of this year. He has repeatedly made it clear that what is provided in schools should always be education and never indoctrination.

§ Lord Gridley
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is there not evidence to suggest that parents whose children are taught political studies in school are still worried to some extent about the political slant which is given to those studies? Have there not been 60 complaints on that score recently? Would it not he a good idea if the Secretary of State for Education and the local education authorities could come to some agreement on what curricula would be appropriate, which would relieve our anxieties about many of our state schools?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I have no doubt that some parents are concerned about the possibility of bias in the teaching which their children receive. My right honourable friend has received a number of letters from parents on this matter since his speech in March, and he is also considering some material given 2 to him earlier this month by a deputation led by Lady Olga Maitland. He has made it clear that he hopes that parents who believe that they have grounds for complaint will not hesitate to take the matter up with the school and, if necessary, with the local education authority and the Secretary of State himself. My right honourable friend has also made it clear that he intends to publish broadly agreed objectives of the curriculum as a whole and of various aspects of the curriculum in particular, later this year.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Cleveland Education Authority, as one example, has already complained about receiving unsolicited material from the Ministry of Defence in support of nuclear arms? Is he further aware that it is at least reported that the Ministry of Defence has been conducting a recruiting campaign through an illegal radio station? If that is correct, is it not as well that children at school should be given another version or interpretation of the issue of peace and war?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I remember something about the Cleveland authority, but I think that it took place quite a long time ago; we had quite a number of questions about it, and I cannot remember the details now. I know nothing at all about the illegal radio station. However, I think it is quite right to give children a balanced view—that is the whole point of education—as long as both sides are put forward in all cases.

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that it is one of the cherished traditions of this country that schools should not be used for purposes of political indoctrination? Could he give some indication as to whether, in view of the growing body of evidence of concern about the use of peace studies for political purposes, the Government might be considering formalising the criteria outlined by the Secretary of State in the excellent speech which he made on that topic earlier this year?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I would entirely agree with the sentiments expressed in the first part of the supplementary question asked by my noble friend Lady Cox. However, when she speaks about 3 "formalising", that worries me a little because I can see great practical difficulties about any legislation along these lines; and this is surely a matter for the professional responsibility of teachers and not for legislation. So far as concerns my right honourable friend's speech, which I mentioned in my original Answer, it has been distributed to local education authorities and at present we have no plans to issue any further guidance.

Viscount Tonypandy
My Lords, would the Minister not agree that it would be unfortunate if the impression were given that the teaching profession in this country is unreliable? Would he also agree that we are very fortunate as regards the overwhelming mass of dedicated men and women who serve in our state schools, and no doubt in the private sector as well? Would he further agree that to try to catch those people who fall below professional standards—and there are people in every profession who do that from time to time—by formalising the situation would, as he very wisely indicated, be a great mistake and would upset an honourable profession?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, for that supplementary question. I think he is right. I do not think that peace studies are taking place to as large an extent as some people imagine. The great majority of our teachers have very high moral standards of responsibility which they apply in their teaching.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is it not a long-established principle of our education system that Secretaries of State and Governments do not interfere in matters of the curriculum? In having a discussion such as we are having at the moment—with noble Lords and noble Baronesses on the other side suggesting that the Secretary of State should do various things—is there not a great danger that we are embarking on a road which would lead to totalitarian control of the education in our schools?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I do not think that we are having a discussion. This is Question Time, and I am answering questions put to me from all sides of the House. I do not think that, through me, noble Lords opposite should start arguing with noble Lords on my side of the House, or vice versa. I think that that is a very good point.

§ Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran
My Lords, will the noble Earl find it convenient, either now or later, to tell the House the authority which the Government have to issue the guidelines about which he spoke in replying to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Gridley?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, my right honourable friend made his speech back in March at a conference which was organised by the National Council of Women of Britain, and I believe that on such an occasion he had every authority to say what he thinks.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is it not the case that it is more desirable for children to have peace studies than war studies?

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I do not think it matters very much whether you have peace studies or war studies: it is how they are conducted that matters.

§ Lord Alexander of Potterhill
My Lords, I wonder whether we have not reached the stage where we would hope that the schools would not be used for party political issues. The schools are there to educate children in the fundamentals which they require in order to make their contribution in due course, and I would hope that we could trust the teaching profession to fulfil the obligations which they have always undertaken with reasonable satisfaction, and ignore a minority who are only a nuisance.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alexander of Potterhill, has really summed up what I have been trying to say all along. As my right honourable friend has said, it must be education and never indoctrination.

§ Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran
My Lords, the noble Earl the Minister has not answered my question as to what statutory authority the Government have for issuing these guidelines.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend needs any statutory authority for making a speech. If every politician who made a speech on a subject had to have political authority, there would never be any political speeches—which might not be a bad thing.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, will the Minister not agree that schools are not the only environment where children receive their education, and that if parents are not entirely happy about the balance of education that their children receive it is up to them to talk with their children and to convince them otherwise?

§ The Earl of Swinton
Yes, my Lords. As I have said before, if parents have any complaints they should make them to the school, and if they get no satisfaction there they should complain to their local education authority. In the event of receiving no satisfaction there, they should then complain to my right honourable friend himself.