Unemployment (Hansard, 18 July 1984)

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)
My Lords, up to April 1984 the number of long-term unemployed has been rising but at about half of the rate of a year ago. The Government do not make forecasts of unemployment but in previous recoveries the changes in long-term unemployment have lagged behind changes in the total level of unemployment.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for that reply. Although at present the country is beset by a variety of very difficult problems, such as the dispute in the mining industry and GCHQ, is it not a fact that the main problem facing us as a society is the unacceptable, high level of unemployment that continues to increase, despite what the Minister says, although possibly at a slower rate? Is the Minister not aware of the utter despair that is now felt in some families who look upon the situation with no hope? Is he really saying that when I start to question him, as I hope to do, in November in the next Session of Parliament, we shall still be facing the same future of despair?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I realise, of course, that the noble Lord is very concerned about the question of unemployment, as are all of us. His Question related directly to long-term unemployment, and it was with that in mind that I answered it. But the noble Lord, like myself, I have no doubt, will be delighted at the announcement made by the Secretary of State for Employment today that over a quarter of a million more people are in employment at the present moment than a year ago and that this is the biggest turnaround since 1979.
1478 In the last nine months of 1983, there was a significant increase in employment and about 200,000 more people were in jobs. This has been maintained, and it is most encouraging. But we cannot be complacent and the Government are as determined as anybody on the Opposition side of the House that we shall overcome this. However, we shall only overcome it by creating real jobs and not by creating jobs that will not be of a lasting nature.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
. My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that the good news that he has just announced might, one would have thought, have elicited cheers, cheers and cheers from the Benches opposite? Is he not aware that what is driving people to despair is the sight of an unnecessary dock strike and an unnecessary coal strike dragging on for weeks without any real purpose other than to cause trouble?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely correct. I have no doubt that, if they were really being honest with themselves, many noble Lords opposite would wholly agree with his sentiments.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the main reason why we on this side do not cheer when he announces a rising number of people in employment is that an even larger number of people are out of employment? The fact is that the size of the labour force is going up, and of course there will be more people in employment. The question is the balance. Is not the critical thing that the Government should have some policy and that they should announce some target on how they will bring down the rate of long-term unemployment? In fact, they have policies and targets about the PSBR, public expenditure, prices and the exchange rate, but no policy at all to bring down the long-term level of unemployment.

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I would remind the noble Lord that the Government care enough to insist on tackling the causes of the problem left unchecked for so many years. Government policies to set right the macro-economic framework are the only way to achieve sustainable growth in output and jobs. We have also made substantial increases in special employment and training measures to help those worst affected. I would remind the noble Lord that we are spending nearly £2 billion in total this year and are currently bringing direct help to about 620,000 people.

The Lord Bishop of Liverpool
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Minister for some of the good news that he has told us, and being indeed glad about that, I note that he said that the Government do not make prophecies of unemployment. I would, however, ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he does not agree with me that, according to all the evidence we have, the market, with its new technology, will never need full employment again, as so many people will agree behind doors? Does he not also agree with me that, if that is true, we must look at policies in a quite fresh way and that it is not good enough simply to pay dole to those whom the market does not need but who would love to work?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I realise the very great concern of the right reverend Prelate, particularly in regard to his own area, about the cause of unemployment. I do not know that he has identified the answer adequately. I think that we must be realistic in this matter. As I said in my earlier statement, I do not think there is any point in trying to create make-believe jobs. I think that by following the policies which we are following, and which are now giving every sign of a recovery, we can best cope with the kind of problem which the right reverend Prelate identifies.

Lord Paget of Northampton
My Lords, does the noble Lord feel that the Government policy to reduce unemployment in the long term or the short term is likely to be improved by selling Sealink to a flag of convenience, and doing it just at this moment?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I must make it absolutely clear that the Government have never pretended that they had any automatic solution to the question of unemployment—

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, the Minister can say that again!

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, we have gone through a period of considerable difficulty in unemployment. We have developed our policies with the intention of improving the situation. Those policies are now beginning to take effect, and I should have thought that noble Lords opposite would have welcomed this improvement, rather than cast doubts upon it.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Bauer
My Lords, as one step for increasing jobs, especially for young people, would be the abolition of the wages councils—

§ Lord McCarthy
Rubbish.

§ Lord Bauer
—will the Government put forward the necessary legislation early next session, so that it will take immediate effect when the period of notice to the ILO expires in 1985?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I take careful note of what my noble friend says, and of course I shall pass on his views to those responsible for preparing the Government programme.

§ Lord Diamond
My Lords, may I direct the noble Lord's mind to the Question on the Order Paper, which is about long-term unemployment? May I ask him whether he takes the view that, among the jobless, possibly the greatest suffering and certainly the greatest demoralisation is experienced by the long-term unemployed? Has he not just told us that normally it is the case that where unemployment does decrease, long-term unemployment lags behind that decrease? Therefore, is it not the case that the Government ought to be devoting special attention to the long-term 1480 unemployed? Can he tell us what policies Her Majesty's Government have for dealing especially with this terrible problem?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has rightly identified the purpose of the Question, which relates to the long-term unemployed. Help is available through the community programme, which will provide 130,000 temporary job opportunities for up to 200,000 participants in a full year. The Secretary of State announced on 16th November that the programme would continue for a further two years, until October 1986, on the basis of 130,000 filled places. Apart from the community programme, other of the Government's employment and training measures provide help to the long-term unemployed. Thus, for instance, over a quarter of those who have benefited from the enterprise allowance scheme and over half of the participants in the voluntary projects programme are people who have been unemployed for over a year.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, does the Minister agree that this problem could be solved by doubling the old-age pension and thereby enabling hundreds of thousands of old people to retire and make way for younger workers?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, that is an interesting observation, but I wonder whether it might have far-reaching implications which would require a great deal of thought before any final decision could be taken.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is obvious that the time has passed when the unemployment question should be treated as a party political football? It is a problem which is shared by the whole of the Western world and one that must be faced up to by all of the European countries. But in this country, per 1,000 of the population we have more people in employment than has any other European country, except Denmark. With that as a beginning, we must have a partnership with other countries, because this is a problem which faces all of us.

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely correct. I think it is quite wrong that we should allow the very serious question of unemployment to degenerate into a party political knockabout. Certainly we on this side of the House have no intention of following that course.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Minister for the announcement he made a few minutes ago about the increasing number of people in work. But is it not a fact that the number of people who were added to the long-term unemployed total over the same period exceeded that figure? So what comfort is there in it for them? Of course, we are glad of the increased number of jobs 1481 being provided, but the point we are making—politics apart—is that it is nowhere near enough. When are the Government going to do more about it?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, the Government are doing a very great deal about it. I think that the greatest contribution that could be made by the Labour Party in general, and particularly in another place, would be if they came out four-square behind those who want to work and condemned those who do not want to work.

§ Lord Stewart of Fulham
My Lords, the Minister used the expression "make-believe jobs". What is his definition of that phrase? Recently we had a report stating that a number of children were suffering in their education because the schools they were being taught in were in very bad repair. Would a programme to repair those schools he a make-believe job?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, the noble Lord asked me what would be my definition of a make-believe job. I would suggest that a make-believe job is a short-term job, created by pumping money, ridiculously, in my view, into sectors of the economy where jobs are going to be created, thus making people believe that the jobs are of a long-term nature when in actual fact they will be of very short duration.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that that is a first-class definition of the Government's community industry programme?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I shall do the noble Lord the courtesy of answering him, though I think that comment is barely worthy of an answer. I think I have identified the Government's policies and their successes sufficiently this afternoon to enable him to grasp them.