HL Deb 11 July 1984 vol 454 cc904-10

4.9 p.m.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement about the report of the Review Group on the Youth Service which is now being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. The Statement is as follows:

"When this report—appropriately entitled Experience and Participation—was published, I described it as a timely and far-reaching study of the ways in which the youth service was helping young people and I said that it offered some important recommendations for the development of the service. Decisions on certain of those recommendations have already been announced to the House. I turn now to decisions on the outstanding recommendations directed to central Government, to which I have given careful consideration in the light of the many comments received during consultation.

"I accept the review group's recommendation that it would be helpful to the field for there to be a publicly known unit in the department dealing with youth service matters, and I propose to identify such a unit.

"In line with the review group's recommendations, grant-aid is being made available to voluntary organisations for experimental projects in managerial innovation in the youth service and for the training of part-time and volunteer staff in particular: the National Council for Voluntary Youth Services will be consulted about the allocation of these resources. As far as the review group's recommendation for grant-aid for regional and county voluntary organisations is concerned, the department already grant-aids national voluntary youth organisations and I consider that it is primarily for these national organisations to support their regional and county bodies, as a number do now. On financial grounds, it has not been possible at the present time to accept the review group's recommendation for mandatory grants for students on youth work courses. I shall, however, continue to keep the important area of youth work training under careful review.

"The Government have considered with great care the review group's recommendations on legislation, but do not consider that it would be appropriate to introduce new legislation relating to the youth service unless legislation dealing with the whole statutory framework of post-school education were being proposed. This is not the case: as I told the House on 10th April I take the view that existing legislation for post-school education remains broadly adequate for its purpose. I further consider that existing legislation provides a similarly adequate basis for youth service provision. I do, however, recognise the need for additional guidance to the youth service particularly as regards the important areas of co-operation between the voluntary and local authority sectors and the need for effective management of available resources. I am consequently issuing for consultation, today, the draft of a circular setting out the Government's views.

"Finally, I have also given careful consideration to the recommendation for a national body to offer advice on questions arising in the field of youth affairs. I have noted, particularly, the considerable support expressed in the report of the review of the National Youth Bureau. In view of the range of activities currently undertaken by the youth service, I am persuaded that a role exists for a small advisory body capable of offering informed advice to me, to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales, and to others with youth service responsibilities on the appropriate scale and direction of youth service activity—having regard to the available resources.

"I accordingly propose to establish such a body within the next few months for an experimental period of three years in the first instance, subject to review at the end of that period. I shall appoint, in conjunction with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales, individual members to this body in a personal capacity: in making choices for membership, I shall have regard to the broad range of interests in the youth service field and to advice I may receive on membership from those active within it.

"By these arrangements the Government intend to develop further the youth service partnership, both at national and local levels, for the benefit of all young people."

My Lords, that concludes my right honourable friend's Statement.

4.14 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness for repeating that Statement. Indeed, it is noble of her to do it as she does not normally deal with education matters. We are glad to have this Statement after such a long delay; we have been waiting for it for a long time. The review group was set up in January 1981 and was asked to report quickly. This it did in 18 months, since when 23 months have elapsed before we have had the review of the review by the Secretary of State.

Although there are certain things in the Statement that we can welcome—that an advisory body is to be set up to give advice to Ministers and that there will be a publicly-known unit in the Department of Education and Science dealing with youth service matters—I have to say that we are disappointed that the Statement is not more positive and rather more detailed. Is there, for instance, to be a young person on the advisory body, as was recommended in the report? Is there to be a Minister at the department who will be responsible, where activities involving young people are concerned, for the co-ordination of the work of all departments? That is a recommendation that I should have thought ought to have been followed up as there are so many departments—the Department of Education and Science; the Department of Employment; the Department of Health and Social Security—which have responsibilities for young people.

We greatly regret that there is to be no legislation to give to local education authorities a statutory duty to provide a youth service and to ensure communication between local authorities and voluntary bodies. The existing legislation is very unsatisfactory, as has been pointed out over and over again in a number of reports. It is, after all, an opportunity the Secretary of State could have taken to legislate for all post-school education. That is something that needs to be done, and that opportunity has not been snatched at.

We regret, too, that the recommendation that mandatory grants should be given for students on youth work courses is to be turned down. There is no comment in the Statement about the age and range that the youth service is to cover. Eleven to 20 was recommended in the report. Is that accepted? There is no comment on the need to bring in the ethnic minorities and girls, and to get them more involved in the service, and particularly to have more coloured people trained as youth workers.

There is no comment on the need for political education to be a normal part of the youth service curriculum pursued in such ways (I quote from the report) "as to involve active participation". Most important of all, there is no reference to the recommendation that the youth service should be funded at a high level. What in fact is happening, according to the expenditure White Paper (Cmnd. 9143), is that the youth service will be cut back by 17 per cent. in real terms over the next three years, and this is at a time when there are one million under 25 unemployed. It makes one wonder very much about the commitment of the Government and the Ministers at the DES to the needs of young people and to the youth service. Those who served on the review group, I suspect, will be disappointed when they read this Statement.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, we on these Benches should also like to thank the noble Baroness for having repeated this Statement. It really is a minimal response to the long and gruelling work of the review body. It is a pity that the opportunity was not taken to give some statutory backing to the youth service. That is the first failure of the Statement. As regards the detail of the Statement, and the experimental projects in managerial innovation, can the noble Baroness say whether additional resources will be provided for them? The Statement is not clear on that point.

As regards the grant aid for regional and county voluntary organisations, which the Statement wishes to continue to be funded by the national bodies out of existing grants, is it not the case that these grants have not been increased to take account of the additional demands made on the youth service by high youth unemployment? Although we were earlier this afternoon discussing the relationship of unemployment to crime, I am sure that no one would disagree that we must wish to encourage an increase in youth club activities, especially in inner city areas.

As regards the review group's recommendation for mandatory grants for students on youth work courses, was this not one of the most important recommendations of the report? Is it not essential for any real improvement in the efficacy of the service? Does the noble Baroness consider that the training of part-time and volunteer staff is an adequate substitute for the proper training of full-time staff? Finally, as regards the small advisory body, to this we can give a cautious welcome. But in view of the involvement of the Department of Education with the recreational side of the youth service, and of the DHSS with the youth counselling side, will these departments be represented or will there be a separate interdepartmental co-ordinating body?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I thank both the noble Baroness, Lady David, and Lord Kilmarnock, for the noble Baroness's personal welcome and the cautious welcome of both to the report. I should have thought it would be greatly welcomed by the House because it is a cohesive policy statement arising from the review group that has been announced by my right honourable friend. Your Lordships will appreciate that it is early days to go into great detail, but I will do my best to answer the questions that have arisen.

The noble Baroness asked me about timing. Decisions on two of the report's recommendations were announced in December 1982. The consultation period on the other matters in the report was extended to 31st March 1983. The Government wish to take account of the autumn 1983 report on the review of the National Youth Bureau because that had a bearing on the National Advisory Council and these have been the necessary components in the timing.

With regard to the adequacy of the Government's response, I think that this is a very positive reply. The essential feature of the review group's report was how to secure the most effective use of the considerable resources already devoted to the youth service by voluntary organisation and LEAs so as to obtain the best possible services for young people. The Government's response tackles this squarely at all levels. The National Advisory Council's emphasis in the draft circular on reinforcing the voluntary statutory partnership and the additional grants to voluntary organisations will all contribute.

With regard to a Minister being appointed, which the noble Baroness also asked me about, the Prime Minister announced in July 1983 that she did not intend to accept the review group's recommendation that a Minister should be designated, based in the DES, to co-ordinate the work of all departments which have an interest in youth affairs, and she said in a Written Answer that: Such an appointment would tend to complicate existing lines of responsibility, which I believe to be satisfactory".—[Official Report, Commons, 29/7/83; col. 645.] I was quoting directly from the written reply.

With regard to legislation to which both the noble Lord, Lord Kilmarnock, and the noble Baroness referred, as I said earlier, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science considers that existing legislation provides a broadly adequate base for youth service provision. The real need is to secure a more effective use of existing resources. The circular which is being issued for consultation will make an important contribution. While much magnificent work is being undertaken, there is evidence that resources could be used to better effect. In Chapter 5 of the report the review group referred to a number of aspects of management and training which could be improved. Recent HMI reports have confirmed the need for more efficient management structures.

The position is that after careful consideration of the recommendation in the review, The Legal Basis of Further Education, and taking account of other measures now in hand to promote efficiency and effectiveness in further education, the Government have decided not to introduce new legislation on further education at present.

Lord Kilmarnock asked me about expenditure on the youth service. Expressed in constant cost terms total capital and current expenditure on the youth service has been at about the level of £100 million since 1978–79 with an increase to £107 million in the last two years. Right honourable and honourable Members in another place were aware that comparisons with the present and future years are made impossible because the margin of expenditure is not allocated to specific services, but the current RSG settlement should allow the great majority of authorities in the aggregate to maintain their 1981–82 levels of provision if costs can be contained.

Lord Kilmarnock also asked me about youth organisations, with particular regard to the young unemployed. The draft circular refers to the important needs of groups such as those young people who suffer from mental and physical handicap and those of the ethnic minorities, but particularly the needs of the young unemployed. My right honourable friend hopes that the circular will assist in achieving a more effective use of resources from which all these groups would stand to benefit. My right honourable friend would expect the new advisory body to wish to consider the role of the youth service in relation to a number of these areas. I have answered as many of the questions as I think time and your Lordships will permit. I hope that if your Lordships feel that I have left out any valuable and important answer they will allow me to write to them.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn

My Lords, to some extent I welcome the Statement that has been made, but I feel that this is one of the most wishy-washy Statements that have come out of the DES for many years. It does nothing to help the youth service. I do not want to fall into the trap that I fell into some time ago while commenting on Statements, but I should like to ask a question. The Statement said that the Secretary of State intended to create a unit within the department. A unit is no good. Why do we not have a branch of the department to deal with this important part of the service of young people within our country?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord. Lord Taylor, feels the way he does. He is entitled to his feelings, but I feel that they will not be shared by the majority in this House who will have welcomed this Statement. The terms of reference of the National Advisory Body will be finalised and announced shortly, but they will be generally as indicated by my right honourable friend in his Statement. They will enable the advisory body to consider the contribution of the youth service in important areas such as youth employment while still retaining a manageable remit for the body. The chairman, members and the title of the advisory body will be announced later. The Government are keeping this body to a three-year period because the youth service is a rapidly changing scene and it is difficult to foresee what will be needed in three years' time, which perhaps in itself answers the noble Lord's question.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that many voluntary organisations within the youth service will regard this Statement as far from the minimal and wishy-washy affair which noble Lords opposite have indicated? The voluntary organisations are deeply divided about whether it would be the best way to make it a mandatory requirement on local authorities to provide for the youth service. They will regard grants for training and for innovation for voluntary organisations as immensely helpful at a point where they most need help and I should have thought they would welcome this warmly.

Is the Minister also aware that the Scottish Council for Community Education, which is an advisory body to the Secretary of State covering the same area for youth work which the proposed advisory body will cover, is serviced by its own officials rather than by civil servants from the Department of Education? Can she tell the House whether that is the intention or whether it will be serviced from within the Department of Education and Science?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I greatly welcome the words of my noble friend and I should like to draw to her attention the fact that a total of £75,000 is being made available to voluntary organisations. Subject to future decisions by Parliament, resources at this level are expected to be available in years to come. This £75,000 is in addition to the grant allocation of £440,000 which the Department of Education and Science already makes available for experimental development project grants.

With regard to my noble friend's other point, I am not particularly aware of the Scottish situation, but my right honourable friend is aware that youth service provision in some local authorities does not come within the remit of the education committee but is dealt with by another committee. However, this applies only to a fairly small minority of authorities. I cannot give my noble friend any information on the matter other than that.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, will the noble Baroness be kind enough to write me about my question on the composition of the advisory bodies?

Baroness Trumpington

Yes, my Lords.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, I am profoundly doubtful whether our problem can be solved by the appointment of new Ministers or, indeed, new advisory bodies. However, if we are to have a new advisory body on youth problems, can the noble Baroness the Minister give us an assurance that some members of the body will be youthful; that is to say, they will be under 25?

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, looks at the original Statement, he will see that my right honourable friend said that, in making choices for membership, I shall have regard to the broad range of interests in the youth service field and to advice I may receive on membership from those active within it".

Lord Grimond

My Lords, the noble Baroness is well aware, of course, that most of those engaged in the youth service field are well over 50.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I do not altogether agree that it would follow that they might not advise that younger people might be appointed.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, may I put to the Minister two brief questions about this body? I feel that many hopes will be placed on how it is formed and on what it will do. I should like to reiterate the priority that there should he on it a young person. I think that the Minister would agree that there is a very fragile link between young people and authority and that this might be strengthened through young people participating in the advisory body. Furthermore, one important role for it would be to make quite sure that its work is co-ordinated with the youth service, so as to inform young people about new developments in the law, such as the new powers in the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill and to ensure that young people know about their own rights under it. I could give other examples; but that is one of them.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I would refer the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, to my earlier answer on composition to the noble Lord, Lord Grimond. I think that my right honourable friend will be well aware of the second point which the noble Baroness has made. For instance, there is an important inter-relationship between the decisions just announced on the youth service report and the review of the National Youth Bureau. The Government will now be able to make rapid progress in reaching decisions stemming from the review of the bureau.