Local Authority Services: Tendering (Hansard, 4 July 1984)

§ Lord Harris of High Cross
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Bellwin)
My Lords, in view of local authorities' slow progress in putting their services to the test of competition, we are giving general consideration to what measures can be taken to speed up the process.

§ Lord Harris of High Cross
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that somewhat Delphic reply. I want to ask him this: in view of the established long success of the specialist contractors in handling the collection, treatment and disposal of waste of almost all industrial and commercial companies, as well as building up valuable overseas contracts in this matter, should they not now be given as a matter of great urgency the opportunity, as in most European countries, to tender for local government services where they can achieve savings commonly of between a quarter and a half of the local authority costs?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I have much sympathy with the question that the noble Lord raises. The question really is only to what extent, and how, they should be given that opportunity. Of course the opportunity exists already. It is merely a matter of how far one would want to proceed down the path of legislation, and that is something which, as I say, is an option and must be part of the consideration.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, why not abolish local government altogether and appoint Tory gauleiters to run all these local services? Is not that the end of current thinking in the Minister's party?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, if I were to answer that it would just be to give some credence to a question which really deserves none.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite the evidence of annual savings of some £7 million from over 20 contracts so far let for refuse and street cleaning, not one of the councils concerned is under Labour control? Why should both ratepayers and taxpayers in all the areas where Labour councils preside suffer as a result of this political dogma?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I can only say that I find it astonishing when noble Lords express concern about local government and all that goes with it that they should be willing, if you like, to sustain a view that is totally unprepared to even look to see what others can provide the same level of service for. I find that almost impossible to understand. It is quite different from saying that you will accept what is there. Not even to want to look, or to know, or to ask, I find astonishing.

§ Lord Bottomley
My Lords, in view of the disastrous consequences of giving out to private tender many local government services—and if the noble Lord requires them I shall send him the details—would he not agree that it is in the best interests of the public that these services should be run by local authorities?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the noble Lord certainly will have to send me the list to which he refers. I would ask him at the same time to consider to what extent he knows of the disastrous consequences of services provided by in-house organisations which do not receive the same kind of publicity as may have been received by individual situations of the kind to which he refers.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, has the Minister had the opportuntiy of looking at the survey carried out by the Local Government Council? Its main conclusions are that the number of authorities examining privatisation has dwindled, and that the vast majority of those examining it have rejected it. I wonder whether the Minister, in the spirit of giving freedom to local councils—like he did yesterday in reducing the quorum for councils and also giving directions on discretionary grants—would give a direction to those councils which have gone private not only to publish their experience, but to publish it against the promises that they accepted all too glibly from private contractors?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I hope very much that there will be the maximum publicity for what has been achieved by those authorities which have placed services out to the private sector. That would be very salutary to note. I hope at the same time that authorities will publish the success which they may have had even from going in-house after they have changed the basis upon which they have been working for so many years—

A noble Lord
A disaster.

§ Lord Bellwin
—because I think it is fair to say not that it is a disaster but quite the opposite, and that, because the private sector has thrown a spotlight upon the opportunities that exist to do things better, there are now services being provided all over the country at a fraction of the cost they were provided for for many years.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, on the assumption that the noble Lord has the information at his disposal to enable him to exude such confidence, would he kindly publish the statistics in regard to this, showing exactly the basis on which he founds his contentions? Particularly in view of the provisions of 275 the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act 1982, would he also be kind enough to publish the results—which I believe he is required to do—of the comparative tender position in relation to direct-labour organisations in the case of building works on behalf of local authorities?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the noble Lord is referring to the DLO legislation and certainly there is no reason at all why all the information available should not be published. So far as I am aware, statistics are not kept separately for all that each local authority does by way of contracting out its services, though I am told that some information has recently been published by the private sector and the statistics of what has been achieved have been collated. So far as I am aware, there are no overall statistics available because, as the noble Lord will agree, this is something which applies not just to one department but goes across all departments.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, either the noble Lord is being so confident about it on the basis of information that he has, or he does not have the information. Will he kindly publish the information on which he bases his answers?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the information that I have is that which comes within the purview of the Department of the Environment. There we have information which comes to us from the local authorities concerned; I point out that it is information that comes from authorities. We have not as yet collated it, but there is no reason why we should not do so, and your Lordships should have no doubt that when we do the figures will be seen to be dramatic.

§ Lord Harris of High Cross
My Lords, by way of supporting the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, may I urge the Minister, if there is anxiety about taking stronger action, to consider the powerful effect that might be derived from more publicity which could be collected, even if it is not collated? May I ask him whether he would incorporate in his publicity the fact that when Birmingham put out its refuse collection to tender its own direct labour force swept the board and won the contract by volunteering to cut manning by 37 per cent. and the number of vehicles it had been using by 40 per cent.? Surely that would be a good beginning.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I am happy to confirm that that is the information I have as well. As I said before, when taken together with the other information, it will only help to make the picture dramatic. As a result of this question I shall consider the matter and the possibility of collecting together all the current information, to see how it can be better publicised.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, will the Minister arrange to publish the information from the Birmingham council refuse disposal department? I shall be very interested, as 70 years ago I was chief cost accountant for the refuse department of Birmingham Corporation.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, one difficulty is that it is not the refuse disposal department, but the refuse collection department.

§ Lord Leatherland
It is the same department, my Lords.