Roads (Scotland) Bill [H.L.]

HL Deb 31 January 1984 vol 447 cc598-645

6.12 p.m.

The Lord Advocate (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now again resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.

Moved, That the House do now again resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Mackay of Clashfern.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The LORD ALPORT in the Chair.]

Lord Campbell of Croy moved Amendment No. 97A: After Clause 65, insert the following new clause:

("Control of horses and cattle on roads.

The owner of any horse or cattle commits an offence if he allows it to be at large on a road without being in charge of a person able to exercise effective control of it.")

The noble Lord said: I beg leave to move the amendment standing in my name. It would be for the convenience of the Committee if a connected amendment were considered at the same time. It is unnumbered in my copy, but it appears between Amendments Nos. 152 and 153 and was presumably, therefore, intended to be Amendment No. 152A. Amendment No. 152A: Page 107, line 8, at end insert— ("Section 00 (allowing horses andLevel 2. £50.") cattle to be on road without effective control).

The new clause which this amendment would introduce is to deal with the control of horses and cattle on roads. Over the years, considerable problems have been experienced in Scotland, in particular from riding schools where a suitable adult has not been in control of horses on the road with riders. A working party was set up in 1972, which the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, will remember (it was set up when I was Secretary of State), to look into what legislation should replace the Burgh Police Acts when they came to an end. That working party made the following recommendation: It should be an offence to allow any horse or cattle to be at large in a public place without someone able to exercise control". So far as I know, nothing has been done by governments since that recommendation on this point. Nothing was done on it, I understand, in the Civic Government (Scotland) Act and there appears to be nothing in the Bill. If horses are to be taken into this new clause, livestock, and therefore cattle, should be treated in the same way. Normally, however, a responsible person is in control of cattle when they are on the road, because farmers want to make sure that they are protected.

It may be that the Government will say that this is too difficult an offence to monitor and police. I simply do not know. However, I would suggest that something needs to be done to improve the present situation. This proposal has been put to me by the Grampian Regional Council, who are especially concerned about it. I ask the Government to explain why they have not yet responded to this recommendation in the working party's report.

May I add a word or two about the drafting. To a layman like myself it may seem a little strange. It seems to me that, in the language of the parliamentary draftsman, cattle can be both plural and singular. Therefore it reads: The owner of any horse or cattle". But later in the amendment it looks as though "cattle" is in the singular.

Another point is that the wording of the new clause reads: without being in charge of a person able to exercise effective control". At first sight, it may look as though the horses are in charge of the riders. In many cases that may be so, but I can assure your Lordships that these two amendments have been prepared by parliamentary agents. Therefore I, as a layman, have to be guided by them as to whether it is the correct language for a Scottish Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I appreciate the intention behind the amendments which have been moved by my noble friend. Clause 95 of the Bill already provides for seizure and detention by the roads authority of any animal which is left on or strays on to a public road, unless that road runs through unenclosed countyside. I doubt whether my noble friend intended the amendment to apply in an area such as that. Clause 95 covers the situation where an animal is at large on the road with nobody being in charge of it. If an owner were so imprudent as to put a horse or cattle in charge of someone who was not able to exercise effective control, he might well lay himself open to a charge under the common law. I am aware that Clause 95 does not include an offence provision, but it provides for the authority to recover from the owner its expenses in seizing and detaining the animal. And administrative costs being what they are, the sums involved, and consequently the degree of deterrence, are likely to be much greater than the fine proposed in the noble Lord's second amendment.

There is another question. I have no complaint about the drafting of these amendments, but there is a question as to whether criminal responsibility should be put upon the owner of the animal. For example, it could be that the owner of the animal has left it in charge of some estate or stable which is perfectly competent to have charge of it, so far as he knows, and the animal is allowed to get out as a result of some failure on their part. There seems therefore to be a question as to whether it would be appropriate in any event to put this responsibility upon the owner.

For these reasons, we feel that the amendment which has been moved by my noble friend is probably unnecessary. In the light of what I have said, I hope that he may feel able to reconsider the matter.

Lord Ross of Marnock

It is true to say that we touched on this subject during our debate last year on the Civic Government (Scotland) Bill. I remember making a brilliant speech on the subject of the offence created there of being drunk in charge of a horse. I made reference to Tam o'Shanter on that occasion, but I bow to the superior knowledge of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate in this respect.

Lord Campbell of Croy

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, for reminding us of that occasion. I am reminded of other occasions on which he also made brilliant speeches on that Bill. The speech to which he referred introduced the element of being drunk in charge, whereas this does not.

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate for what he has said. It appears that the other clause to which he referred is intended to cover the situation to some extent. I assume that is how the recommendation of the 1972 working party is being dealt with. I hope that my noble and learned friend will confirm that point. I am sure that those who are interested in this matter will want to read what he said in relation to that other clause of the Bill before reaching any further conclusion. I am sure that they will also be grateful that the drafting, which did look a little strange to the layman, has nonetheless passed the Lord Advocate's eagle eye. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 66 [Power of roads authorities to stop up roads by order]:

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 98:

Page 41, line 42, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert ("subscription (1) above").

The noble Lord said: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if Amendment No. 98 is taken together with Amendment No. 99. Amendment No. 99: Page 42, line 5, leave out ("(b)"). These are drafting amendments, and they are suggested because it seems to me quite unnecessary to detail and particularly specify subsections (1)(a) and (1)(b) when it appears that making reference to subsection (1) only would be sufficient. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I appreciate the point which the noble Lord is making, but there is a substantial difference between what he has proposed and what we have proposed, and I shall try to explain that difference briefly. If the noble Lord will refer to Clause 66(1)(b), he will see that what is being contemplated is that the road, is or will become unnecessary". If the noble Lord's amendments were given effect to, the possibility of dealing with a road which "will become unnecessary" will be prejudiced. The existing subsection is an important improvement on the situation because, under the law without that provision, it would mean that, if one were making a new stretch of road, one could only close up the old stretch of road once the new stretch was in position and in use. It takes some time to make an order under that provision, whereas we wish to have the additional facility of making the arrangements in advance so that, when the new road comes into action, the old road that has become superseded and unnecessary can be taken out of action immediately. That will have some benefit, as I am sure the noble Lord will immediately appreciate. As I understand the amendments proposed, that is the difference between us. A substantial and important benefit will be damaged by the approach that is proposed.

Lord Ross of Marnock

These two amendments were the brainchild of my noble friend Lord Hughes, who is not here to argue them. It would be presumptuous on my part if I proceeded to cross swords with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate in respect of this matter. I am prepared to examine what the noble and learned Lord has said because there are other stages in the Bill at which we can tackle the subject again. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 99 not moved.]

Clause 66 agreed to.

Clause 67 [Stopping up of dangerous access from public road to land or premises]:

6.25 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No.100:

Page 42, line 19, leave out ("a") and insert ("the")

The noble and learned Lord said: This is a technical amendment which is intended to correct what is a mistake: The word "a" should have been "the".

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 67, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 68 agreed to.

Clause 69 [Provisions supplementary to sections 66 to 68]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 101:

Page 43, line 8, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

("(2) Where a roads authority propose to make an order under the said section 66 or 67, then, before the expiry of 28 days from the date of the first public notification, in accordance with regulations under subsection (1) above, of the proposal to make the order, any person may object to it to the authority, and—

1. where the roads authority is a local roads authority—
1. if no such objection is made, or objection is made but withdrawn, they may confirm the order themselves; and
2. if such objection is made and not withdrawn, the Secretary of State shall determine the matter, and may confirm the order with or without modification or refuse to confirm it;
2. where the roads authority is the Secretary of State, he shall not make the order without having considered any such objection.")

The noble and learned Lord said: The purpose of this amendment is to extend the application of Clause 69(2) to orders by the Secretary of State, as roads authority, under Clause 66. It will enable objections to be made to such an order proposed by the Secretary of State and will require him to consider the objections before going on to make the order, if he decides that that is the course to take. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 70 agreed to.

Clause 71 [Temporary provision of substitute road]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 102:

Page 45, line 15, at end insert— ("( ) Without prejudice to section 112(1) of this Act, from the commencement of the making of a road through land under subsection (1) above until reinstatement of the land under subsection (3) above, rent shall by the roads authority he payable for so much of the land as is taken for the road; and the amount of that rent, and the person or persons to whom it is so payable, shall, in the absence of agreement between the roads authority and each person on whom they have served notice under subsection (2) above as regards the road, be determined by the Lands Tribunal for Scotland, whose decision on the matter shall be final.")

The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment provides that where land is taken over by a roads authority to provide a temporary substitute road, rent is paid for the use of the land. This would in no way affect the right to compensation under Clause 112(1) for damage sustained by execution of the works. The amendment also provides for disputes as to the amount, or the proper recipient of the rent, to be determined by the Lands Tribunal for Scotland. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 71, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 72 and 73 agreed to.

Clause 74 [Discontinuation of operation of certain swing bridges]:

Lord Ross of Marnock had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 103:

Page 47, line 10, leave out subsection (1).

The noble Lord said: In the interests of speed, I am prepared not to move this amendment. We have taken far too long on this Bill!

[Amendment No. 103 not moved.]

Clause 74 agreed to.

Clauses 75 and 76 agreed to.

Clause 77 [Transfer to Secretary of State of privately maintainable bridges carrying trunk roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 103A:

Page 49, line 13, at beginning insert ("Subject to section 119(1) of the Transport Act 1968 (ending of liability of certain Boards to make payments on being relieved of responsibility for bridges carrying trunk or special roads),").

The noble and learned Lord said: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I take with this amendment, Amendments Nos. 103B, 103CA and 103D. Amendment No. 103B: Page 49, line 14, leave out ("the Secretary of State shall pay to the owner") and insert ("the owner shall pay to the Secretary of State"). Amendment No. 103CA: Page 49, line 18, after third ("the") insert ("extinguishment of any liability of the owner for the maintenance or improvement of the bridge and the Secretary of State shall pay to the owner such sum as may be so agreed or determined to represent the value, to the owner, of the"). Amendment No. 103D: Page 49, line 19, leave out ("Such arbitration") and insert ("Any arbitration under the foregoing provisions of this sub-section"). I should point out that Amendment No. 103CA is the same as Amendment No. 103C was, with the addition of the word "so" which has been omitted in the preparation.

These are purely drafting amendments. Amendments Nos. 103B and 103CA are required to ensure that the Secretary of State does not assume the liability to maintain a private bridge carrying a trunk road without an agreed financial settlement from the bridge owner. Amendment No. 103A is required to prevent the clause conflicting with Section 119 of the Transport Act 1968, which exempts the British Waterways Board from making such payments. Amendment No. 103D is consequential and will be required because there would be two references to arbitration if the earlier amendments are agreed; the existing wording could be construed as referring only to the second reference to arbitration.

I should mention also that these amendments have a bearing on Amendment No. 104 dealing with the point raised by noble Lords opposite that it might well be that, although there was revenue, there was not net revenue. We have now sought to deal expressly with the two possibilities; that something is an asset or that it is a liability according to which way the income and expenditure goes out. We have attempted to deal with that point expressly in these amendments. It is right that I should note that noble Lords raised that point for our consideration and that we have tried to take account of it. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

These amendments are eminently sensible and I am very grateful that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate has covered the point. I fully support what he has done.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

Is it to your Lordships' pleasure that I put Amendments Nos. 103B, 103CA and 103D together?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I beg to move Amendments Nos. 103B, 103CA and 103D.

[Printed above.]

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 104 not moved.]

Clause 77, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 78 [Transfer to Secretary of State of privately maintainable bridges carrying special roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 105:

Page 51, line 1, leave out ("the said section 7") and insert ("section 9 of this Act").

The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment is necessary to correct a wrong cross-reference. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 78, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 79 to 81 agreed to.

Clause 82 [Control of builders' skips on road]:

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 106:

Page 54, line 18, after ("clearly") insert (", legibly").

The noble Lord said: This seems to be only a drafting amendment, but I think if we look at some of the vehicles, skips and so on seen on the roads we find that all sorts of devices are used to explain which particular contractor or owner they belong to. Although it may be clear, I think that it would be an improvement if it was also legible and understandable by ordinary people who do not have a handy reference to the various codes that are used in the industry. I beg to move.

The Lord Bishop of Norwich

Before the noble and learned Lord replies, may I put a question on Clause 82? At line 20 on page 54, Clause 82(2) says: Such permission…in subsection (1)(a)…may be granted either unconditionally or subject to such conditions". and when it mentions the conditions it says: and the conditions may in particular relate to". It is not for me to interfere in a family debate about Scottish roads, except that something always happens to me on Scottish roads and so I watch them with the greatest of care whenever I have the privilege of being in that lovely country. I particularly wanted to ask the Minister about the siting and lighting of the skip. It does not look as though Clause 82 makes it mandatory for the skip to be lit; only that it may be lit if the local authority desires it. Because skips are so dangerous —and again because I have such danger on Scottish roads, sometimes simply because of the speed at which I go; I find that the police force in Scotland watch for English bishops, but that is a personal matter—may I ask, what about the lighting of skips?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

The first thing I would like to say is that we regard "clearly" as including the kind of considerations the noble Lord mentioned. If a skip is clearly marked with the owner's name that means that it is clear to those who look at it what the owner's name is, and therefore I would suggest that "legibly" does not really add anything to this provision. I have had a look at the dictionaries and I think they confirm my earlier impression that that would be the situation; there is a good deal of common ground between "clearly" and "legibly".

Now if I might address myself to the question posed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich, first of all may I say how much I welcome his participation in our consideration of this Bill because what happens in Scotland is of course vitally important for everyone, including the bishops. I should also say perhaps that the Scottish police are extremely impartial in their dealings with people, and therefore no particular favour is to be expected by an English bishop travelling in Scotland; on the other hand, I think it is also fair to claim that no special disfavour is likely to be meted out to him either.

So far as his question is concerned, what we have done is to give power to the local authority on the basis that they may grant permission for the use of the road by the builder's skip either unconditionally or subject to such conditions, including, as the right reverend Prelate pointed out, the siting and lighting of the skip. We have done it on that basis because there is no question that if the skip was to be there overnight in the hours of darkness then it would be a reasonable condition that one would expect the local authority to impose. On the other hand, if it is going to be there an hour or two during the day any condition about lighting would be inappropriate.

Of course, the siting is also a question of circumstances; what one would impose in the way of conditions as to siting would also be a matter of discretion for the local authority. The right reverend Prelate will also be aware that Clause 58(1)(b) makes other provisions for the lighting of obstructions. I hope that in the light of these explanations the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Ross of Marnock

Even before this came to my notice I had been taking a close look at some skips. Many of them are clearly marked, but not legibly; one cannot read who the owner is. That was the point I wished to cover. It may well be that one is clearly marked at the time it goes out and is put on the site, which may be on a pavement or just off a pavement. By the time loading up is finished—and many of these things lie there for two or three days—it has become illegible.

The right reverend Prelate has a very good point. I have seen a skip in the small quiet street in which I live lying there for about a week or so. In many cases mud is splattered over them, and although they are marked they are not marked so as to be legible all the time. That was the only point I wished to make. There may be other points we can raise on this on the Question that the clause stand part, more validly in respect of the point raised by the right reverend Prelate. So far as the amendment is concerned, it was designed to be helpful. As the Lord Advocate knows, I always agree with him when he is being sensible about these things, and if he is satisfied I am prepared to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Whether Clause 82 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

I return to a point which has been mentioned before and which I feel will come up on many other discussions on the Question that the clause stand part. This clause gives the roads authorities powers to control the siting and operating conditions of all types of builders' skips which are unlike their present powers. I understand Section 22 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970 limits skips being used for purposes other than building to only the roads authority. It seems a logical extension that all skips on the road be now the responsibility of the roads authority rather than the district authority.

The problem arises—and this is the point we shall continually come back to—that it will add, with all the other conditions in the Bill, additional expense and responsibility to the regional authorities, who are in most cases the roads authorities.

I think that there will be perhaps substantial increases in the work load. It is not an easy matter. Inspectors or other highway people may be out on the roads representing the district, doing 101 other jobs and merely noticing these things as they pass, taking notes and getting the process going. The responsibility cannot just be taken from them with the assumption that money is being saved by transferring the responsibility to the roads authority and that it will all balance out.

Various other responsibilities will be put on the roads authority and the Bill will cause regional councils considerable extra expense. I have been approached by regional councils which are concerned about this. This is not perhaps a matter for the Lord Advocate in his judicial role but perhaps it is in his role as a Government Minister generally. He should be aware that the regional authorities are concerned about the amount of extra work that will be put on them as a consequence of the Bill.

Lord Drumalbyn

I believe that skips are not always used by their owners but are let out to others from time to time. Therefore, would it not be the person operating the skip who would require permission from the roads authority?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I shall draw to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove. I have no doubt that such considerations are taken into account. We are doing what we can to make sure that the arrangements for distribution of the powers are as economical as possible. That is one of the reasons why my noble friend Lord Stodart of Leaston was asked to chair a committee to examine these matters.

I say to my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn that the permission is not particularly to be given to the owner. It is not specified particularly who asks for the permission, but the identification of the skip is by reference to the owner. That seems a good arrangement. Whoever happens to be using the skip at the particular time, it is important that when the skip is found on the road it shall be easy to discover who owns it and who therefore has the ultimate responsibility for the way that it is being used.

Clause 82 agreed to.

Clauses 83 and 84 agreed to.

Clause 85 [Removal of projections which impede or endanger road users]:

6.43 p.m.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 107:

Page 55, line 42, leave out ("such").

The noble Lord said: I think that we could sensibly take Amendments Nos. 108 and 109 together with this. Amendment No. 108: Page 55, line 43, leave out ("therefrom as") and insert ("which") Amendment No. 109: Page 56, line 5, after ("payable") insert ("by the roads authority").

This is an effort to improve the drafting of the Bill. I am sorry to upset the draftsman who delights in using the phrase, "therefrom as", but I think that the subsection makes much more sense if we adopt my word. As an English teacher, I feel that if the expression, "any such projection", is used, there should have been a reference to a projection before that; but there is no mention made in the subsection of any projection before that. My suggested change would make the wording much more clear.

The same applies to the phrase: No compensation shall be payable".

I suggest that a phrase should be added to show by whom. That is the simple purpose of the amendment. As ever, we on this side of the Committee are trying to be helpful. We know that on this Bill the Lord Advocate needs all the help that he can get. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Noble Lords opposite can certainly take it that the Lord Advocate is always grateful to them for all the help they can give. I appreciate the spirit in which the amendments are moved. I appreciate the elegance of the noble Lord's drafting, but the difficulty is that if the drafting in Amendments Nos. 107 and 108 is given effect to, there is no connection necessarily between the projection and the building. The responsibilities accrue according to the building which is owned or occupied. Therefore, I think it is necessary to specify some connection between the building and the projection which is the source of the trouble.

Lord Ross of Marnock: The phrase: and is specified in the notice", is already in the clause.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

But what is specified in the notice must be a projection from the particular building. It is that concept—the connection between the projection and the building—which is required as the basic power, apart altogether from the notice, which the noble Lord's amendment does not leave clearly in the clause.

I think that Amendment No. 109 is not necessary for this reason. The amendment is being suggested to subsection (3). Subsection (3) plainly refers to compensation. "payable under subsection (2)". When one looks at subsection (2), it is plain that the person paying the compensation is the roads authority. That is the obligation of subsection (2).

Much as I appreciate the spirit in which these amendments are moved, we have considered them carefully and have concluded that on this occasion the present drafting is to be preferred. I hope that the noble Lord may feel persuaded by that.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I am not persuaded. I should like to argue the matter out, but this is not the Scottish Grand Committee. May I tell the Government that if ever they get this Bill into the Scottish Grand Committee in another place they will never get it out. That is not a warning, because I am not there now, but others have followed on.

I disagree with the noble and learned Lord in respect of the wording of subsection (1). In respect of subsection (3), I was making it absolutely clear as to where responsibility would lie and clarifying the phrase: No compensation shall be payable", by making it clear to whom that referred—the authority. When I read the Bill I see the number of otiose phrases in it. The amendment has much more to commend it than have many of the other things that we have in the Bill and will be putting into it. But at this late hour of the night I do not see why we should prolong the argument. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, and I shall not move the two succeeding amendments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 108 and 109 not moved.]

Clause 85 agreed to.

Clauses 86 and 87 agreed to.

Clause 88 [Prevention of danger to road from nearby vegetation and fences etc. or from retaining walls being inadequate]:

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

I have to inform your Lordships that if Amendment No. 109A is agreed to, then I cannot call Amendment No. 110.

6.48 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 109A:

Page 57, line 10, leave out from ("with") to second ("a") in line 11 and insert— ("—(i) road users' view of the road; (ii) the light from a public lamp; or (iii) ")

The noble and learned Lord said: Amendment No. 109A is intended to deal with the point that is raised in Amendment No. 110 by noble Lords opposite, by making it clear that the subsection embraces obstruction of the lamps and signs as well as interference with them. The idea is to prevent obstructing, for example, the lamp in such a way that it spoils the effect of that lamp in lighting the road. I think that the grammar and sense is improved by putting it this way. At the same time we have embraced the point which is made by noble Lords opposite in Amendment No. 110. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I am prepared to agree to this amendment. I think it is an improvement. The point that also concerned me when I put down Amendment No. 110 is that very often the offender is the local authority parks department which allows trees to overhang roads, completely shrouding the light from the lamps that it has put up, which are then not effectively lighting the roads. I know of roads where there are lights on only one side, and the local authority fails properly to trim the trees that overhang the road. I have even seen people having to walk on the carriageway because of bushes and so forth overhanging, not from the gardens of private dwelling-houses, but from public parks. I hope that this point will be taken notice of not only by other people who are concerned, but also by the local authorities themselves, so that they meet their obligations to pedestrians and motorists in regard to branches and bushes that obscure and overhang.

The Earl of Selkirk

I should like briefly to support what the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, has said. I have been trying to work in a certain idea which I should like to mention. In many cases local authorities dig ditches and then leave the spoil on the side of the road. I have tabled one or two amendments to deal with the point, though I am not sure that they are in the right place. In this part of the Bill all the emphasis has been on the ill-deeds of frontagers, and so I think that the noble Lord is perfectly right in that a certain obligation should be placed on local authorities. I know of cases where on narrow roads there has been built up from the spoil of ditches—which no doubt are necessary—a considerable bank which interferes with the view down the road. I do not think that that point is covered, and I should like my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate to look into it to see whether a duty can be imposed on the local authority to ensure that it does not restrict or obstruct vision in this way. I have down an amendment which roughly covers the point, though, as I say, I am not sure that it is in the right place, and I should like my noble and learned friend to consider putting it in the most appropriate part of the Bill.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I certainly take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, and my noble friend Lord Selkirk have made—that it behoves authorities which have powers to keep other people in order to make quite certain that their own parks, trees, and shrubs are in proper order. I have no doubt that, if they failed in their duty to see to that, they would certainly lay themselves open to questions at common law if damage resulted.

With regard to my noble friend's concern about the view being obstructed by the placing of spoil on the roadside, I think that we discussed the point at the last proceedings of the Committee, and I agreed to look at it in detail. We are in course of doing that, and I should not like to take the matter further at the moment, though I shall certainly let my noble friend know when I have completed my consideration of it. I think that some of the amendments are still to be dealt with, though really we dealt with them all effectively on the earlier occasion. I am grateful for what has been said, and I am glad of support for the amendment

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 110 not moved.]

Clause 88, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 89 [Restriction on planting of trees etc. near carriageway]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 111:

Page 58, line 35, leave out ("48 or").

The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting amendment to make it clear that the roads authority does not require permission from itself for its own work. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 89, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 90 [Protection of road users from dangers near a road]:

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 112:

Page 59, line 5, leave out subsection (1).

The noble Lord said: The amendment has been put down because the subsection strikes me and my noble friends as being extremely wide, giving very great powers to a roads authority. It would be wrong to let the subsection go through without at least registering the point that the powers are extremely wide and if not properly and sensitively used could bring about much unhappiness and could perhaps result in people being greatly disadvantaged. I should like to draw the attention of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to the fact that the powers are very wide. I should also like to have from him an assurance that the powers have been looked at very carefully and that there are enough safeguards for people who will perhaps be intruded upon by the powers contained in the subsection. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

As the noble Lord has said, subsection (1) of the clause contains a fairly wide power. It is essentially a power to provide for road safety and, I think all your Lordships would agree, it is most important that land adjacent to a road, in particular unfenced land, is maintained so as to avoid danger being caused on it to road users.

Generally speaking, the Bill does not concern itself with land beyond the road boundary, except in cases of danger or obstruction. There are other provisions of the Bill to deal with specific dangers; for example, the clause that deals with dangerous vegetation, fences and walls on adjacent land, and Clause 80, which deals with obstruction of view. But they do not cover all possible circumstances where a roads authority may need to Act for the protection of road users. For example, dangerous machines, holes, or heaps of rubbish—to which my noble friend Lord Selkirk referred—that are not adequately fenced could constitute a danger to the road users. So I believe that it is necessary to have a power of this kind. It has its sources in the act of 1878 and in the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892.

When I was looking at the noble Lord's amendment suggesting that the subsection should be deleted, I wondered whether he had in mind the part of it which, in regard to the steps taken by the roads authority, provides that the authority, may recover the expenses reasonably incurred in so doing from the owner of the land". and whether that might be regarded as a point that should not go completely unmarked. Looking at the clause as a whole, I have wondered whether it would not be right to provide an appeal to the owner of the land in respect of that matter in the same way as is at present provided for subsection (2). So I respond to the noble Lord's amendment by saying that it has led us to consider the point, and we shall consider further whether it would not be right to extend the provisions to allow for an appeal to the sheriff in relation to an attempt by the roads authority to recover expenses in connection with the matter. My noble friend Lord Selkirk also has down an amendment to the clause, dealing with a more specific point.

The Earl of Selkirk

Perhaps I may say a few words at this stage, since it may save me from having to move the next amendment. I took a different view from that of the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael. I thought it very important that the local authorities should be compelled to take action. The words that I considered important were, constitutes a danger to road users". I have a picture of a danger to road users, and if there is such a danger, it must be removed, and it is a proper duty of the local authority jolly well to see that it is removed. I propose that the word "may" should be changed to the word "shall". I agree that it involves a slightly different interpretation from that mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, but I would say that, if the matter in question is a danger to the road, it should be removed, and that should be a clear duty on the local authority.

I do not want to press the point unduly, but I hope that my noble and learned friend will be good enough to look at it and see what can be done. The danger should not be regarded merely as something that could be removed or as something which the authority is free to remove; it is something that must be removed, if that is what is meant by the words. I see that the subsection refers to matters near a road, and perhaps it could be recast to make quite clear whether the danger is a possible danger. If it is a possible danger, that is a different thing. But, if it is a positive danger to road users, it must be removed, and it should be clearly stated that that is the duty of the local authority. I should be very grateful if my noble and learned friend is able to consider possible rewording of the subsection.

7 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Most certainly, I can see the force of substituting for the word "may" the word "shall" as proposed in my noble friend's amendment No. 113. I do not think that in its practical effect it would make a substantial difference at all because the roads authority, of course, are the persons who have, in the first case, to form the opinion that there is a danger. When you are in this situation where it is a matter of first forming an opinion and then giving them power to take action, it seems appropriate that it should be a power to take action rather than a matter requiring an expression such as "shall". I do not think that there is much difference in effect between the two in this context. I agree with my noble friend that this power is an extremely important one and that where the roads authority have a power of this kind, there will be an implied duty to exercise it where danger actually exists.

Lord Drumalbyn

I should like to ask whether the word "anything" in line 5 would include an animal. For example, an animal that is tied up might cause a child on a bicycle to swerve into a line of traffic.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I think that we are dealing, at the moment, with Clause 90.

Lord Drumalbyn

The first line says: If, in the opinion of the roads authority, anything which is on land"— and so on.

Lord Ross or Marnock

I apologise to the noble Lord. I have a thing about things. I consider that it is a matter of inadequate draftsmanship of words when we resort to use of the word "thing". We come to this again. I missed the opportunity by not being here on the last occasion that we considered the Bill. This is a fallback power. The authority use this power only when they cannot use any other power under any other clause. That being the case, it is a very important power and a very sweeping power. It is the roads authority which consider the thing a danger. There is no notice to the owner of the land, as I read it. The roads authority just go in and do it. They do what they think is necessary and then they charge the owner of the land.

I was a little surprised that noble Lords who have more interest in land than I have should not have spotted the nature of the power that is taken here. I do not know that the Government would get away with it anywhere else. You might get away with it in the House of Lords, but I doubt if it would happen anywhere else where people take a keener interest in the acutal words of the Bill and the powers that are being given. There is no reference to the powers being given only in an emergency. They are to be available at any time. This is a very dangerous power. I am glad that, in respect of expense that might be passed on to an individual, the power of appeal is being considered by the Lord Advocate. I would prefer him to tighten up the whole of this particular power.

The Bill mentions all sorts of other things where the roads authority can take action after having given notice, but this one is very dangerous. I agree that the word "shall" should make this a mandatory power. In an emergency, you cannot wait for that kind of thing. It should not be tied up with phrases such as "in the opinion of the roads authority". We have had a few emergencies this past fortnight although I do not think that there were many English bishops skating around the roads of Scotland at that time. I would gladly have met one on the Fenwick Moor the other night. The right reverend Prelate always goes at the right time. However, I consider this a most important clause. I am glad that it has been noted by the noble Earl and others.

On Question, amendment negatived.

[Amendments Nos. 113 and 114 not moved.]

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 115:

Page 59, line 27, leave out ("thing") and insert ("barrier").

The noble Lord said: Here, we come to things. This is a hangover from a long list of amendments of mine considered just over a week ago where the dictionary of the draftsman had failed him. The result was the use of the word "thing" at least five or six times in one clause. My amendment here is in relation to "thing". I suggest that we use instead the word "barrier". It is to get rid of this seeming inadequacy when walls, window-sills, spikes, broken glass and barbed wire and similar devices are all barriers. The word "barrier" has been used by the Government in other parts of the Bill. I consider that it would be much better here than the word "thing".

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I understand the noble Lord's aversion to the word "thing" if a better word can be found. Unfortunately, I doubt whether the word "barrier" is appropriate here because it has to cover all the matters—I almost said "things"—that are mentioned in subsection (2). The noble Lord will see reference to "a wall or window-sill". It would be inappropriate to describe a window-sill as a barrier. Therefore, the word "barrier" does not seem appropriate.

On Question, amendment negatived.

Clause 90 agreed to.

Clause 91 [Power to fill in roadside ditches etc.]:

The Earl of Selkirk moved Amendment No. 116:

Page 60, line 4, after ("ditch") insert ("or the spoil therefrom").

The noble Earl said: We are back on the same subject. There is a complication. I am thinking really about spoil on the verge of the road. According to this Bill, the verge of a road is the road. We therefore have this slight complication. The clause states: If it appears to the roads authority that a ditch on land adjoining or lying near to a public road constitutes a danger". I am talking about obstructions or anything that interferes with the vision of a road actually on the verge. This, because it is part of the road, is an obstruction of the road.

The amendment does, I think, make sense by adding the words "or the spoil therefrom", because spoil can also be an obstruction. It is, technically speaking, part of the road according to the definition of the Bill. It may be argued that it does not apply to this clause. I have spoken about this enough. It is an important point and I hope that my noble and learned friend can see that it is effectively incorporated.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

When we considered this before I said I would look at the matter carefully and, as I remarked a few minutes ago, we have not completed our consideration. My noble friend will perhaps allow me some further time for consideration.

The Earl of Selkirk

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 91 agreed to.

Clause 92 [Deposit of mud from vehicles on roads]:

On Question, Whether Clause 92 shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

There is a small point to which my attention has been drawn. This is perhaps the only time I can raise it because I was too late to put down an amendment. On clause stand part, the Lord Advocate will perhaps be kind enough to take note of what I say and to look at the matter. The description of the clause is "Deposit of mud from vehicles on roads". However, line 29 refers to mud dropped or deposited on carriageways. That would seem to exclude the pavement or the footpath. It has been drawn to my attention that perhaps it would solve the problem—because it is just as dangerous and distressing to have mud on the footpath as it is to have it on the carriageway—if "road" were substituted for "carriageway", that would be more satisfactory in every way and would take in everything. At this stage I can only ask t he noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate to take note of it.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

It seems to me that the noble Lord has suggested an improvement, and he has kindly allowed me time to consider it, and I would like to do that. But at first sight it would seem to be an improvement and I am most grateful to the noble Lord for raising the point.

Clause 92 agreed to.

Clauses 93 to 96 agreed to.

Clause 97 [Damage to roads etc.]:

7.11 p.m.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 117:

Page 64, line 7, after ("or") insert ("reasonable").

The noble Lord said: Clause 97 lists a number of events that shall be construed as offences provided the person who commits them does so: without lawful authority or excuse".

I do not presume that the word "lawful" covers the word "excuse". If they have an excuse it might be a good excuse or it might be a bad excuse. I suggest that to make it fairly foolproof it should be "reasonable excuse". I am suggesting that we insert the word "reasonable". It may well be that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will want a long time to consider the matter. I am prepared to give him two minutes. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

The noble Lord has kindly given me considerably longer than that to consider the matter, because I saw the amendment shortly after he put it down. It seems to me, with respect, to be an extremely good suggestion and I am very happy to accept it.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 118:

Page 64, line 12, after ("sign") insert (", slogan").

The noble Lord said: I think that this provision could be improved by adding the word "slogan" in case it is not covered by any other words that are catalogued in respect of marks. The noble and learned Lord will know quite well what I have in mind in respect of this amendment. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I have certainly considered the matter. Whatever might be described as a slogan is fairly well covered by the provision that we already have in the Bill and, of course, if one were to make a collection of letters an offence, one might be slightly complicating the matter. If each sign or mark constitutes an offence it would probably be safer. So in this situation I would prefer to leave the drafting as it is, and I hope that the noble Lord will, perhaps, on reconsideration feel able to agree with me.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I am prepared to reconsider the matter, and I hope that the noble and learned Lord will reconsider it as well. What we have at present is: paints or otherwise inscribes or affixes upon the surface of a road or upon a tree, traffic sign, milestone, structure or works on or in a road, a picture, letter, sign or other mark". It is not necessarily a mark. It may well be something made on paper, and very often when it is made on paper it is a slogan. The noble and learned Lord has seen them as well as I have. Why not be clear about it? However, if the noble and learned Lord is not satisfied at the moment I will think again about it myself and about the statement he has made. There are other stages of the Bill to go through. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved manuscript Amendment No. 118A:

Page 64, line 14, leave out paragraph (c) and insert— ("(c) by lighting a fire within, or by permitting a fire for which he is responsible to spread to within, 30 metres of a road, damages the road or endangers traffic on it;".

The noble Lord said: This is an afterthought that has been suggested from a very authorative source and it is one with which I concur. It suggests that we leave out paragraph (c) and insert: by lighting a fire within, or by permitting a fire for which he is responsible to spread to within, 30 metres of a road, damages the road or endangers traffic on it". The endangering of traffic on the road is something which I felt had been missed out. These words are much more felicitous and I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I am grateful to the noble Lord for moving this manuscript amendment. He earlier put forward the idea that not only damage to the road should be taken into account, but also danger to traffic on the road. It was fairly apparent that he had in mind the kind of danger that comes from fire adjoining the road. That led on to thinking that that kind of danger can arise not only when someone starts the fire within 30 metres of the road, but when someone starts a fire further from the road and it burns towards the road. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for moving this amendment which seems to cover that concept very fully.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees

Amendment No. 119 is therefore eliminated. The next amendment is Amendment No. 120.

[Amendment No. 119 not moved.]

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 120:

Page 64, line 17, after ("wall") insert (", barrier").

The noble Lord said: This is a similar type of amendment, to ensure that all the things that the Government have mentioned which might be damaged or interfered with, shall be covered. The amendment adds the word "barrier" to the list, so that it concludes with post, rail, wall, barrier or fence". The noble and learned Lord will find that the word is used elsewhere in such a list. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Again, in our view this is an improvement which noble Lords have suggested, and I am very grateful to them for bringing this amendment forward. I am happy to advise that the amendment should be accepted.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

On Question, Whether Clause 97, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

I should like to raise a very small point. It has been brought to my attention that the only things that have been omitted and which we see on the roads every day are lighting columns. If we look at paragraphs (b) and (d) we see all sorts of things, such as: a tree, traffic sign, milestone, structure or works on or in a road". Lighting columns may be included in that list, but it seems as though they are blindingly obviously things that have been omitted, as was pointed out to me by somebody else. I would be very grateful if the noble and learned Lord would look at the situation with a view to adding them or reassuring us that lighting columns are included in the more general descriptions.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Certainly I will be happy to look at the matter. My first instinct would be to say that they probably are covered, but I would like to look at the matter.

Clause 97, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 98 to 101 agreed to.

Clause 102 [Further provision as regards acquisition of land for construction, improvement, etc. of public roads]:

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 121:

Page 66, line 4, after ("preserving") insert ("or improving").

The noble Lord said: This amendment seems to be an improvement on the original wording. It may be desirable to acquire land to improve the road, not merely to preserve the road. There may be a necessity' to improve it, and I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will see that certainly nothing is lost by adding "or improving". It gives a great deal more scope for the reconstruction and development of public roads. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I respectfully agree with the noble Lord that the addition of the words "or improving" is an improvement and I am happy to recommend acceptance of the amendment.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 102, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 103 to 112 agreed to.

Clause 113 [Determination of disputes as to compensation]:

7.21 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No.122:

Page 73, line 10, after ("103") insert ("112,").

The noble and learned Lord said: Clause 112 enables a person who sustains damage from execution of works under certain provisions in the Bill to recover compensation. Disputes may arise over such compensation and, by adding Clause 112 to other clauses listed in Clause 113, the amendment provides a means of determining such disputes under the Land Compensation (Scotland) Act 1963. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 113, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 114 to 117 agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 123: After Clause 117, insert the following new clause:

Saving for obligation to obtain planning permission.

(".Subject to any express provision to the contrary, nothing in this Act authorises the carrying out of any development of land for which permission is required by virtue of section 20 of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972 (development requiring planning permission) and which is not authorised by permission granted or deemed to be granted under or for the purposes of Part III of that Act.").

The noble and learned Lord said: The powers provided in the Bill are not intended to override requirements to obtain planning permission, unless specifically so stated in the Bill. For the avoidance of doubt, however, the amendment provides an appropriate saving clause, making that absolutely plain. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clauses 118 and 119 agreed to.

Clause 120 [Miscellaneous summary offences]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No.124:

Page 77, line 23, after ("rider") insert ("or some other person").

The noble and learned Lord said: As it happens, this amendment has exactly the same effect as Amendment No. 125, the amendment on the Marshalled List to be proposed by noble Lords opposite. We noticed this point independently and I am very grateful to noble Lords opposite for bringing this forward. We entirely accept the view in their amendment. Therefore, as it just happens to come first, I beg to move Amendment No. 124.

Lord Ross of Marnock

Perhaps the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate would clear my mind. What is the difference between "some other person" and "another person"? The noble and learned Lord prefers the words "some other person" rather than the words "another person". Perhaps he could explain this just to help me in my legal education.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I am always delighted to help the noble Lord. The only reason I prefer this amendment is that it happened to come first. We tabled this amendment and the noble Lord tabled his. If I had known of the noble Lord's amendment before we tabled this amendment, I should have been perfectly content with his.

The Earl of Selkirk

I should like to ask my noble and learned friend one question. There used to be a convention, or a rule, that one could lead a horse on the righthand side of the road. I presume that this was due to the fact that horses are normally led on the lefthand side. They can be led on the righthand side quite well too. Is there anything to support that rule? Does my noble and learned friend know of any such rule that still exists? Certainly as a young man many years ago I learned that that was a permissible way of travelling. If my noble and learned friend has never heard of it, it is probably pure myth.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I should not like to suggest that there is anything mythical about it. It seems to be a sensible suggestion. However, just at this moment I should not like to give chapter and verse for it.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 125 not moved.]

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 126:

[Printed earlier: col. 653.]

The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment is one of a series of amendments to which I spoke earlier dealing with the amendments necessary to give effect to the provision of cycle tracks. This amendment provides an offence in respect of a person who parks a motor vehicle wholly or partly on a cycle track. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 127:

Page 78, line 10, after ("any") insert ("proper")

The noble Lord said: This is a very small amendment. The paragraph reads: Where materials, tools, machinery or other equipment—(a) have been deposited in any proper place for use by the roads authority in constructing or maintaining a road". That may not be a strong enough word. However, although I have great admiration for road builders, occasionally they do silly things, and I think it is important that we emphasise the fact that before materials or anything else to be used for construction or repairs are placed on a road care should be taken that they are put in the proper place. That is actually emphasised in the Bill itself. I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

Of course, the general structure of the Bill suggests that it would not be right, for example, to put such materials in a place where they obstructed the road, and so on. This particular provision, in which the amendment is proposed, is for an offence. It is provided at line 15 on page 78 of the Bill that: a person who without reasonable excuse takes away, or displaces, the materials, tools, machinery or equipment commits an offence. Therefore, "without reasonable excuse" would appear to cover that matter, and if it was a question of displacing or moving the materials from a wrong place, the person would not be a guilty of an offence. So we think that it is difficult to specify what is a "proper" place (and the noble Lord has indicated this). The reasonableness of the action taken to move the materials is perhaps the most satisfactory test. In the light of that explanation, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw this amendment.

Lord Ross of Marnock

This matter is rather difficult, because it might well be that if you put something in a place that is not a proper place, you are giving the person who has taken it away an excuse to get away with the offence. It might be quite important equipment. I have known of people taking away tractors, cranes and other machinery. If they can say, "That was not the proper place for it; it did not look as though it belonged to anyone", they might get away with it. Therefore, I think that we should try to cover this aspect. Valuable property and valuable materials are being taken away, and it may well be that we are giving justification for taking them away if they have been left in a place where it is not sensible or proper to leave them in the first instance.

However, we shall not press this amendment. We are all anxious not to offend the Government Chief Whip; I know how concerned he is about Scottish business. I do not propose to go further with this amendment. I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 120, as amended, agreed to.

Lord Denham

My Lords, after those soft words from the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, I think that the best I can do is to offer your Lordships an adjournment because we seem to have reached the hour for one. Through the usual channels, the suggestion is that we should adjourn for three-quarters of an hour until 8.15 p.m. My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.15 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The sitting was suspended from 7.30 until 8.15 p.m.]

Clauses 121 to 134 agreed to.

Clause 135 [Regulations, orders and schemes]:

[Amendments Nos. 128 and 129 not moved.]

Clause 135 agreed to.

Clauses 136 to 142 agreed to.

Clause 143 [Interpretation]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 130:

Page 89, line 36, leave out ("'cycle track', 'footpath' and 'footway'")

The noble and learned Lord said: Perhaps I may take with Amendment No. 130 Amendments Nos. 131 and 133. Amendment No. 131: Page 90, line 2, at end insert ("'cycle track' shall be construed in accordance with subsection (2) below:") Amendment No. 133: Page 90, line 7, at end insert ("'footpath' and 'footway' shall be construed in accordance with subsection (2) below;")

The purpose of these amendments is to respond to observations made in the Second Reading debate that the definitions of "cycle track", "footpath" and "footway" in Clause 143(2) are difficult to locate. These terms are already mentioned in subsection 143(1) but are associated there with a "carriageway". Therefore, what we have done is to take them out of that and put them into an alphabetical order. It is hoped that the separate references in alphabetical order provided by the amendments will be an improvement and also provide a clear signpost to subsection (2). I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I think I am content with this. It is an improvement. I think the person who mentioned this was one of the Liberal Peers. There is no Liberal Peer present, so I take it that they have seen the amendments and they agree with them. I think it is an improvement.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 131:

[Printed above.]

The noble and learned Lord said: I have spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 132:

Page 90, leave out line 3.

The noble Lord said: This is something I felt strongly about a long time ago, that "days" had to mean "clear days" We have not had very many clear days in Scotland over this past month. I am still not satisfied with the explanation that was given to me at an earlier stage by the Lord Advocate as to why we need to define "days" as "clear days". I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I have given the explanation. I do not think I have anything to add to what I said before about it. There is certainly indication in judicial dicta that where one is talking about "days" and one means the whole of the day it is wise to say so, and that "clear days" is a good way of doing that, and that is the one we have chosen. I think I cannot say much more.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I hate to say it, but the explanation is not very clear. But then, "clear" has another meaning. I am sad to realise that the lawyers in Scotland and the legal luminaries in Scotland cannot define a day without having the word "clear" in front of it. It does not say very much for them—or it tells you a lot about them. I am not going to press the matter now. I hope it does not mean that we have to go through every piece of legislation we have ever had in order to redefine "day" or "days". I can think of quite a lot of legislation where we never felt it necessary to put in "clear days", but it may well be that the lawyers in Scotland are becoming more confused by the kind of legislation that they are getting and having to contend with. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 133:

[Printed above.]

The noble and learned Lord said: I have already spoken to this. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Ross of Marnock moved Amendment No. 134:

[Printed earlier: col. 683]

The noble Lord said: This is, I think, another of Lord Hughes' amendments. He was very concerned about the definition of "frontager". I will move it formally and listen to the reply from the Government.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

This does go back to discussions that we had earlier about the matter. I think it would not be appropriate to have this amendment in the Bill as it stands at the moment, but I have undertaken to Lord Hughes to consider various matters that he mentioned and I shall certainly indicate to him in due course what conclusion I have reached in the light of that reconsideration.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 135:

Page 91, line 19, leave out ("and a proposed road").

The noble and learned Lord said: As presently drafted the definition of "road" in the Bill, except where specified to the contrary, includes "a proposed road". Having looked over the matter with the Bill in its present state, we consider that this definition is not now necessary, and that it is therefore wise to delete "a proposed road" from the definition where the Bill does deal with proposed roads separately. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 136 and 137:

Page 91, line 27, leave out ("constructed") and insert ("provided").

line 28, leave out ("(a)").

The noble and learned Lord said: I will take Amendments Nos. 136 and 137 together. These are drafting amendments necessary to ensure that the Secretary of State is defined as the roads authority for special roads; not only for those which he constructs but also for those which he provides by appropriation or transfer of existing roads. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment Nos. 138:

Page 92, line 9, after ("section") insert ("or section 198(2) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972").

The noble and learned Lord said: This is essentially a drafting amendment which makes good an omission in the definition of a trunk road in Clause 143. Section 198(2) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972 empowers the Secretary of State to provide or improve any road in connection with development and provides that where the Secretary of State is the roads authority for such a road, it is to be a trunk road. Consequently it should be included in the definition of "trunk road". I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 139 to 144:

Page 92, line 25, at beginning insert ("For the purposes of this Act"). line 27, leave out ("in this Act referred to"). line 28, leave out ("as a footway") and insert ("a 'footway'"). line 30, leave out ("as a footpath") and insert ("a 'footpath'"). line 32, leave out ("so referred to as a cycle track") and insert ("a 'cycle track'"). line 34, leave out ("so referred to as a carriageway") and insert "a 'carriageway'").

The noble and learned Lord said: With the leave of your Lordships, I beg to move Amendment Nos. 139 to 144 en bloc.

These amendments are all intended to clarify the definition of "road" in Clause 143(2). The terms "footway", "footpath", "cycle path", and "carriageway" are included in the general term "road", and we want to make plain what each of these expressions is intended to mean in the Bill. We think that the present arrangement is not as clear as it perhaps might be, and I believe that doing it in the way we now propose makes it plainer. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I do not know how the lawyers will regard this but I know how the general public will regard it: as a piece of absolute nonsense; not just this but many other aspects of it. But if the Lord Advocate, the head of the legal profession, or the leader of that band in respect of this kind of thing, is satisfied, who am I to put the layman's point of view!

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 145:

[Printed earlier: col. 653.]

The noble and learned Lord said: This is the last of the amendments which are referred to under the general heading of "cycle tracks", and this is the amendment which makes provision for the order which is required in this connection. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

The only thing I have to say about this business is that the heading of this clause is "Interpretation", and in an Act of Parliament where we have an interpretation clause it is not usual to have powers. I am just wondering whether or not during this stage and the next the Lord Advocate will look to see whether he should put powers, if powers are necessary, anywhere else, but not in the interpretation clause.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I am certainly happy to look at the point that the noble Lord has mentioned.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 143, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 144 [Consequential provision]:

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove moved Amendment No. 146:

Page 93, line 22, leave out ("or") and insert ("and").

The noble Lord said: This is a very small point. It is really substituting on page 93, line 22, an "and" for "or". It would read: transitional or supplementary provision as appears to him to be necessary and proper—".

I think it is a fairly small amendment, and I hope the Lord Advocate will agree that it is an intelligent one.

I beg to move.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

The idea of this provision is to give the Secretary of State power, in effect, to make incidental, consequential, transitional or supplementary provisions by order.

The provisions that he can make, as provided by the Bill, are such as appear to him in that light to be necessary or proper. If the amendments are necessary, then it is really implied that without them there would be something wrong with the statutory provisions. They have to be made, but it is also usual to provide that even if amendments are not necessary in that strict sense, if it is correct to do so it should be done. I think it is the usual form to allow consequential provisions of this kind to be provided for by order where they are necessary or proper, and I suggest it would be in accordance with the usual practice to have the word "or" in as the present draft proposes.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

I must say that I do not think I have previously noticed the Lord Advocate being quite so unsure of himself in this Bill. I felt that he was not altogether happy himself with the explanation he gave, and I wonder whether he would think that just because it has always been considered as correct, necessary or proper that it should be done, now might be the time to reconsider it. I felt that he was unsure about it. While he seems to be very familiar with it in other statutes, it appeared tome that he was saying, "Why the hang have we got this in in any case? Why do we not do it as the word suggests?" I am sure there is more comfort in adding something which has always been done, but I would be most grateful if he takes this away to reconsider how important it really is to substitute this word "and" for "or".

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was not as sure of myself as I usually am. I certainly have no hesitation in advising the Committee that the Bill as it stands is the correct form in relation to this particular clause.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 144 agreed to.

Clause 145 agreed to.

8.30 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 147:

After Clause 145, insert the following new clause: General adaption of subordinate legislation etc. (" . Without prejudice to section 144 or 145 of this Act and except where the context otherwise requires or the Secretary of State by order under either of those sections otherwise provides, in any order, scheme, regulation or other instrument which before 1st January 1985 was made under or confirmed by a public general or local Act and in any local Act passed before or during the same session as this Act (such order, scheme, regulation, instrument or local Act not being an enactment which has ceased to have effect by virtue of subsection (1) of the said section 145) any reference—

1. (a) to a street, to a highway or to a road shall be construed as a reference to a road within the meaning of this Act;
2. (b) to a turnpike road, to a public carriage road, to a public highway, to a maintainable highway, to a public street or to a public road shall be construed as a reference to a public road within the meaning of this Act;
3. (c) to a private street or to a private road shall be construed as a reference to a private road within the meaning of this Act;
4. (d) to a prospective public road or to a prospective public street shall be construed as a reference to a road which is declared likely to become a public road in a declaration made by the local roads authority under Schedule 2 to the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950 and is registered in the register kept by them under paragraph 2 of that Schedule;
5. (e) to a highway authority or to a street authority shall be construed as a reference to a roads authority within the meaning of this Act:
6. (f) to a roadway or to a carriageway shall be construed as a reference to a carriageway within the meaning of this Act; and
7. (g) to a cycle track, to a footpath or to a footway shall be construed in accordance with this Act.")

The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment provides that references in subordinate and local legislation passed before the enactment of this Bill, where expressions such as "street", "turnpike road" and "highway authority", and so on, are used, should be interpreted in accordance with the system used in this Bill. In my submission that is the correct way to proceed.

Your Lordships will appreciate that such references in the primary legislation are being dealt with, particularly, in Schedule 8, and each Act that requires to be amended is specified there. We have further amendments to deal with that. As far as subordinate and local legislation is concerned, it does not seem appropriate to do it in that way and it is best to have a general scheme such as this. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Advocate says that it would not be appropriate to deal with it in any other way but this one, may I say that this is a belated discovery because this is the Committee stage of the Bill. If it were the only appropriate way to deal with it, I would have thought it might have been put in the Bill at the start. What he says is "appropriate" is the only possible way to deal with it. I want to congratulate the draftsmen for having found a formula to get round a difficult piece of legislation. I am sure that they are probably looking at all they have done in Schedule 8, and all they intend to do in Schedule 8, and saying, "I wish we had thought of this earlier".

I will say a word or two about Schedule 8 when we reach it; but I congratulate them on having found this formula and having found it just in time. It is a bit of a liberty, but we are covering many private Acts and many pieces of legislation that have hitherto been forgotten, that we have this overall piece of comprehensive drafting to bring them in within the meaning of the Bill. I shall not object to it but I shall congratulate them on it. I have no doubt they will find mistakes in it, probably before the next stage; but that is the nature of the Bill. I do not know how many draftsmen have died of heart failure or from nervous exhaustion over this Bill. It may be that the patience of the Lord Advocate has been tried over the last few weeks since he started to read the Bill. My colleague my noble friend Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove has spent a long time on this Bill during the Recess, as everyone will appreciate from the way he has mastered it, and in the meantime we are prepared to agree to this amendment.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1 [Procedures for making or confirming certain orders and schemes]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 148 to 152:

Page 95, line 20, after ("9") insert ("or 12") line 31, after ("person") insert ("(other than himself or as the case may be themselves) ")

Page 96, line 39, leave out ("public utility") and insert ("statutory")

Page 97, line 32, after ("7") insert ("or 72(3)") line 32, leave out ("that section or section 72(3) of this Act") and insert ("either of those sections")

The noble and learned Lord said: Amendments Nos. 148 and 151 correct omissions. Amendment No. 149 removes the possibility of a roads authority having to serve on itself copies of a proposed order. Amendment No. 150 changes the undefined term "public utility undertakers" to the term defined in the Bill, "statutory undertakers", and Amendment No. 152 is a minor improvement consequential on Amendment No. 151. These are all minor drafting amendments designed to clarify the provisions. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Schedules 2 to 6 agreed to.

[Amendment No. 152A not moved.]

Schedule 7 [Penalties for offences]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 153:

[Printed earlier: col. 653.]

The noble and learned Lord said: I think I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Schedule 7, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 8 [Minor and consequential amendments]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 153A to 156E:

Page 108, line 10, at end insert—

("The Highway (Railway Crossings) Act 1839 (c. 45)

. In section 1 of the Highway (Railway Crossings) Act 1839 (duty of proprietors of railways to maintain gates where railway crosses highway)—

1. (a) for the words "any turnpike road or any highway or statute labour road for carts or carriages in Great Britain" there shall be substituted the words "the carriageway of a public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
2. (b) for the words "turnpike or other road as aforesaid" and "turnpike or highway" there shall in each case be substituted the word" carriageway".

The Railway Regulation Act 1842 (c. 55)

. In section 9 of the Railway Regulation Act 1842 (gates at level crossing to be kept closed across road)—

1. (a) for the words "any turnpike road, or any other highway or statute labour road for carts or carriages, in Great Britain" there shall be substituted the words "the carriageway of a public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)"; and
2. (b) for the words "turnpike or other road" and "turnpike or other roads", wherever either expression occurs, there shall be substituted the word "carriageway".")

Page 111, line 18, at end insert—

("The Railway Clauses Act 1863 (c. 92)

.—(1) The Railway Clauses Act 1863 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 5 (restriction on shunting trains), for the words "a turnpike road or public carriage" there shall be substituted the words "the carriageway of a public".

(3) In each of sections 6 (erection of lodge at level crossing) and 7 (requirement for bridge instead of level crossing), for the words "turnpike road or public carriage" there shall be substituted the words "carriageway of a public".

(4) In section 16 (access to shore under or across railway)—

1. (a) after the word "footways" there shall be inserted the word", footpaths"; and
2. (b) after the word "footway", wherever it occurs, there shall be inserted the word ", footpath".")

Page 111, line 25, at end insert—

("The Explosives Act 1875 (c. 17)

.—(1) The Explosives Act 1875 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 22 (general rules for premises registered for the keeping of gunpowder), in each of subsections (1) and (2)(a), for the words "highway, street, public thoroughfare" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 30 (restriction on sale of gunpowder), for the words "highway, street, public thoroughfare, or" there shall be substituted the words "road or in any".

(4) In section 80 (penalty for throwing fireworks in thoroughfare), for the words "highway, street, thoroughfare," there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 108 (interpretation), at the end there shall be added the following definition— The expression "road" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".")

Page 111, line 25, at end insert—

("The Crofters Holdings (Scotland) Act 1886 (c. 29)

In paragraph 9 of the Schedule to the Crofters Holdings (Scotland) Act 1886, after the words "public road" there shall be inserted the words "(within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984".")

Page 111, line 30, at end insert—

("The Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1888 (c. 255)

. In section 16 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1888 (power to apportion expenses between railway company and applicants for works)—

1. (a) in subsection (1), for the words "highway board, surveyor of highways acting with the consent of the vestry of his parish" there shall be substituted the words "or local road authority (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)"; and
2. (b) subsection (3) shall cease to have effect.

"The Light Railways Act 1896 (c. 48)

. In section 7(1) of the Light Railways Act 1896 (application for authorising light railway) for the words "road authorities" there shall be substituted the words "local roads authorities (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984".")

Page 111, line 41, at end insert—

("(4) In section 56(1)(a) (penalty on exposure of infected persons), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 74 (rules as to underground dwellings), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".")

Page 111, line 41, at end insert—

("The Congested Districts (Scotland) Act 1897 (c. 53)

. In section 10 of The Congested Districts (Scotland) Act 1897 (interpretation), at the end there shall be added the following definitions— The expressions "footpath" and "public road" have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".")

Page 111, line 41, at end insert—

("The Dogs Act 1906 (c. 32)

. In section 3 of the Dogs Act 1906 (seizure of stray dogs)—

1. (a) in subsection (1), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road";
2. (b) in subsection (1A), for the words "a highway" there shall be substituted the words "in a road"; and
3. (c) after subsection (1A) there shall be added the following subsection—

"(1B) In subsections (1) and (1A) above "road" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".")

Page 111, line 41, at end insert—

("The Light Railways Act 1912 (c. 19)

. In section 6 of the Light Railways Act 1912 (amendment of section 24 of the Light Railways Act 1896)—

1. (a) for the words "road authorities" there shall be substituted the words "roads authority";
2. (b) the existing words, as amended by paragraph (a) above, shall be subsection (1) of the section; and
3. (c) after that subsection there shall be inserted the following subsection—

"(2) In subsection (1) above, "public road" and "local roads authority"; have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".")

Page 112, line 2, at end insert—

("The Railways Act 1921 (c. 55)

. In section 73(3) of the Railways Act 1921 (interpretation), for the words "a public carriageway" there shall be substituted the words "the carriageway of a public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)".

The Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act 1928 (c. 44)

. In section 5(3) of the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act 1928 (interpretation), in the definition of "light railway", for the words "public carriageway" there shall be substituted the words "the carriageway of a public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)".")

Page 112, line 16, at end insert—

("The Road and Rail Traffic Act 1933 (c. 53).

. In section 45 of the Road and Rail Traffic Act 1933 (interpretation)— (a) after the word them:—" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'Carriageway' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; (b) after the definition of "Minister" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'Public road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; and (c) in the definition of "Railway", for the words "a public carriageway" there shall be substituted the words "the carriageway of a public road".").

Page 112, line 40, at end insert—

("The Coal Act 1938 (c. 52)

. In section 34(1)(c)of the Coal Act 1938 (saving for certain statutory rights), for the words "highway authority" there shall be substituted the words "local roads authority (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)".

The Civil Defence Act 1939 (c. 31)

. In section 90(1) of the Civil Defence Act 1939 (interpretation), in the definition of "public utility undertakers", for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Page 113, line 2, at end insert—

("The Local Government Act 1948 (c. 26)

. In section 144(1) of the Local Government Act 1948 (interpretation), in the definition of "railway", for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

The Civil Defence Act 1948 (12, 13 & 14 Geo. 6. c. 5)

. In section 4(2) of the Civil Defence Act 1948 (powers as to land), for the word "highway" in each of the three places where it occurs there shall be substituted the word "road".").

The noble and learned Lord said: These are amendments in Schedule 8 which make consequential amendments to a number of statutes. As the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, said, we have followed the principle of making the appropriate amendment to square with the structure of roads legislation proposed in this Bill to the individual Acts which form primary legislation. We have done a more general revision of the local and private legislation in the amendment I moved a while ago. One of the reasons for doing it individually in each of these statutes is to ensure that they are in accordance with the structure of roads legislation, as now modernised, to make it unnecessary for the users of this great variety of other legislation always to look at the roads legislation to see what the provisions are and, at the same time, to have these other provisions consistent with the scheme of the roads legislation. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

Now we come to Schedule 8. When we first saw this Bill we found 24 pages in this schedule. We are now adding another 24 more pages to the schedule. I am told by the Lord Advocate that we wanted to make sure that everything was covered. Could I ask him when his department started on this Bill? How many years ago? I think they probably started on this Bill, without my knowledge, when I was Secretary of State, and I stopped being Secretary of State in 1976. But between the publication of the Bill, its Second Reading and this stage, we are adding as many pages to it as we had before. It does not inspire one with confidence that before this Bill is finished in another place another few pages will be added and we are making this thing up as we go along.

I shall suggest seriously to the Government that because of the complications that have arisen in relation to this Bill, which is not a consolidation measure but covers Acts of Parliament from 1839—I think the last one mentioned in the Bill is the Civic Government Act that we dealt with a year ago, and we have lived quite happily with them; there has been no cause célèbre about a "street", "highway" or anything else—they should lose this whole Bill between here and the Commons.

I think it has been a complete waste of time. I do not think it makes very much sense to interfere when we do not need to interfere. We have got this business here—getting rid of the word "turnpike" and the word "highway". What are we going to call the Highway Code in future by the way? We are wiping "highway" out of all the legislation but all the behaviour on roads is going to be called the Highway Code. What was the legislation or the subordinate legislation that produced the Highway Code? If it is in subordinate legislation it is already out by virtue of the amendment that was moved last. Does it make any great sense? Has anybody been at a great loss in respect of "highway"?

I have heard the noble and learned Lord himself and my noble friend mentioning highways tonight. There ain't none!

This is quite unnecessary, and I am perfectly certain that already there will be other pages ready to go in at the next stage unless the Government are too embarrassed to put them in. I am sorry about this, but this is how I feel about it. I gave them the opportunity to think about it on the very first amendment that I moved on this Bill, when they took out the word "highway". Nobody is worried about this. Here we have been living quite happily with the 1839 Act and nobody has bothered at all. But now here we are making further changes in these ancient and not so ancient Acts. I am not going to object to them. If the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Advocate wants this trawl—because they have been trawling through all the Acts to see what they have missed—then I am prepared to play along with them at this particular stage. But, quite frankly, I hope that somebody somewhere has another think about this. This is the responsibility of the Lord Advocate, because the draftsmen are his responsibility, but somebody in the Crown Office has had far too much time on his hands: that is all I can say.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

This Bill, so far as ministerial responsibility is concerned, is the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Scotland and I think the technical position is that my departmental responsibility is to provide the draftsmen, but provision for the drafting of a particular Bill is the responsibility of the Minister whose Bill it is. I say that only in view of the way the noble Lord put his point.

As he has said, the position is that much of the legislation in relation to roads in Scotland is extremely old and if a legal system is to be operating in modern conditions with all the difficulty of modern times, it is very important that the statutory provisions should be as concise and as well structured as possible. To attempt a consolidation of Acts passed over such a long period as that without making some effort to bring them into a consistent structure would be a great mistake, in my view. It is for that reason that this Bill has been brought forward.

As the noble Lord said, certain work in connection with it would have started when he was Secretary of State for Scotland, but that was in the nature of examining the old law to see how much of it should be retained and how it fitted together—because it had been added to at various stages over a long period—in order to see what the nature of the provisions should be.

The actual drafting is a more recent matter, and there is no point in starting to look through other legislation to see the effect on it until we have the roads Bill structure complete. These are in the nature of consequential drafting amendments, and I feel certain that the right thing to do is to put that structure, where relevant, into other Acts to avoid difficulty for the future. So I certainly feel very strongly that this is an important and necessary piece of legislation. I am glad that the noble Lord, during his tenure of office, was responsible for putting work in progress to lead to this fine result.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I can assure him that I never gave my consent to producing a Bill like this; and my recollection of trying to get legislation through was that one of the big hold-ups was the availability of draftsmen. It may well be that the Lord Advocate is so much more kindly disposed to every suggestion that comes from a Secretary of State that he makes draftsmen available for this kind of thing.

He can look as far as he likes but he will never find me responsible for a thing like this. This is not consolidation. If there had been consolidation, we should have had some guidance, it may well be from the Law Commission. After the Bill was produced we should have a special committee of Lords and Commons. I used to be a member of it hack in the late 1940s. We used to meet up here in a room in the House of Lords and I used to feel that I ought almost to take my shoes off and put on my slippers when I went into it. It was gone into very thoroughly to see that it was actually consolidation. But this is not consolidation; and I shall be glad if the noble and learned Lord can tell me truly that he thinks it is fair to any legislator to bring in a Bill like this. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, who is the only one who has shown the slightest interest—though occasionally we have had the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and a few others on the Labour Benches taking part—and we really ought to have had every Act of Parliament from 1893 right through to 1980 in front of us if we were going to do the job properly.

This is being done first by the House of Lords and we claim that we do an essential service. It is no essential service to the country for us just to sit and say "Yea" to everything the Government produce in a Bill like this. I have spent hours on it and I do not think those hours have been usefully spent. I could have spent them on something much more important. I think it is an unnecessary Bill and I still think that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate should examine the fact that he gave his consent to his draftsmen spending valuable time on a thing like this. It should not have been done, especially as they are so busy that they have to farm out Government Bills to private Members. We have got an education one coming along—filling the statute book with unimportant stuff when there is important stuff, certainly for Scotland, that requires to be done. I say in all sincerity that I think this Bill should be lost in the distance between the Lords and the Commons.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendment No. 157:

Page 114, line 7, after ("than") insert ("a substitute road made under section 71(1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 or").

The noble and learned Lord said: This amendment makes an important change in the definition of "road" which will consequentially amend the definition of "street" in the Public Utility Street Works Act 1950. The arrangement here for a substitute road is the system by which a road may be in use while a new piece of road is being constructed. It is important that although that road is used as a road for a certain period the public utilities would not be able to put their apparatus in such a road because it is only going to be there for a temporary period. This amendment ensures that the statutory undertakers cannot bring their apparatus on to a substitute road built under Clause 71. By definition, being a temporary road, such apparatus should not be there. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

8.50 p.m.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 157A to 166A:

Page 126, line 22, at end insert—

("The Pet Animals Act 1951 (c. 35)

.—(1) The Pet Animals Act 1951 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 2 (pets not to be sold in streets or public places), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 7(3) (interpretation), after the definition of "pedigree animal" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;

Page 127, line 38, at end insert—

The Mines and Quarries Act 1954 (c. 70)

. In section 151(2) of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954 (fencing of abandoned and disused mines and of quarries) in each of paragraphs (b)(ii) and (c)(ii), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)".

Page 127, line 38, at end insert—

("The Crofters (Scotland) Act 1955 (c. 21)

. In section 37(1) of the Crofters (Scotland) Act 1955 (interpretation), after the definition of "predecessors in the tenancy" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'public road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".").

The Coal-Mining (Subsidence) Act 1957 (c. 59)

. In section 1(3)(i>) (election of alternative to executing remedial works in relation to subsidence damage), for the words "highway maintainable or repairable by the inhabitants at large or a highway in Scotland managed and maintained by the Secretary of State or by a regional or islands council" there shall be substituted the words "public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984".").

Page 128, line 15, at end insert—

("The Opencast Coal Act 1958 (c. 69)

. In section 13 of the Opencast Coal Act 1958 (apparatus of statutory undertakers)— (a) in subsection (4), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; (b) in subsection (5), for the words "highway" and "highways" there shall be substituted, respectively, the words "road" and "roads"; (c) after subsection (5) there shall be inserted the following subsection— (5A) In subsections (4) and (5) above, "road" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984."; and (d) in subsection (6), the words "'highway' includes a public right of way;" shall cease to have effect.").

Page 128, line 15, at end insert—

("The Weeds Act 1959 (c. 54)

. In section 11(2) of the Weeds Act 1959 (interpretation), in the definition of "occupier— (a) for the words "the authority by whom the road is being maintained" there shall be substituted the words "the roads authority ("public road" and "roads authority" having the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1983)"; and (b) at the end there shall be added the following proviso— : Provided that this Act does not apply as regards a road for which the roads authority is the Secretary of State".").

Page 128, line 21, at end insert—

("The Weights and Measures Act 1963 (c. 31)

.—(1) The Weights and Measures Act 1963 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 21(2)(h) (requirement of document as to weight of vehicle and its load), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 58(1) (interpretation), after the definition of "prescribed" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".

(4) In Schedule 6 (provisions as to solid fuel)—

1. (a) In each of paragraphs (3B)and (2), 3C(1) and 10, for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) in paragraph 6A(1), for the word "highways" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

The Agriculture and Horticulture Act 1964 (c. 28)

. In each of sections 13(7) and 21(2)(a) of the Agriculture and Horticulture Act 1964 (reservation as regards powers of entry), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Page 128, line 27, at end insert—

("The Agriculture Act 1967 (c. 22)

. In section 23(5) of the Agriculture Act 1967 (reservation as regards powers of entry), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Page 131, line 19, at end insert—

("The Firearms Act 1968 (c. 27)

. In section 57(4) of the Firearms Act 1968 (interpretation), in the definition of "public place", for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984."

The Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968 (c. 47)

.—(1) The Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 3(1) and (2) (construction of public sewers and public sewage treatment works), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 12(7) (breaking open street in relation to connecting premises with public sewer etc.), for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(4) In section 41 (power to break open streets)—

1. (a) for the words "the carriageway and footways of any street and of any bridge carrying a street" there shall be substituted the words "any road, any bridge carrying a road,";
2. (b) for the words from "or vault" to "footway", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the words ", vault, sewer, drain or tunnel in or under a road"; and
3. (c) for the words "carriageway or footwa", where they occur for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 59(1) (interpretation)— (a) after the definition of "river purification authority" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950;"; (b) the definition of "street" shall cease to have effect; and (c) after the definition of "trade premises" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'trunk road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".

The Transport Act 1968 (c73)

.—(1) The Transport Act 1968 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 116 (transfer of responsibility for maintenance of highways on bridges)— (a) in subsection (3), for the word "highway" where it occurs for the first and fourth times there shall in each case be substituted the word "roads", and where it occurs for the second, third and fifth times there shall in each case be substituted the word "road"; (b) for subsections (4) and (5) there shall be substituted the following subsection— (4) Where paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (1) of this section are not satisfied immediately before the appointed day in the case of any such bridge as is mentioned in that subsection, or such a bridge as aforesaid is constructed after that day, then if on any subsequent day—

1. (a) the Board or Boards concerned are responsible for maintaining the road carried by the bridge, or that road together with the road giving access to the bridge (the "access road"); and
2. (b) the road at each end—
1. of the bridge; or
2. if the Board or Boards are also responsible for maintaining the access Road, of the bridge and the access road, is a public road,

the road (or roads) for which they are so responsible shall forthwith be entered by the local roads authority in the list of public roads kept by the authority under section 1 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984."; (c) in subsection (6)—

1. at the beginning there shall be inserted the words "Without prejudice to the provisions of the said Act of 1984,"; and
2. for the word "highway" where it occurs for the first, third, fourth and fifth times there shall in each case be substituted the word "road", and where it occurs for the second time there shall be substituted the word "roads; and

(d) in subsection (7), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 117 (duties as respects bridges carrying highways)— (a) in subsection (1)(a), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; (b) in subsection (3)(b), for the words "when it is opened for traffic" there shall be substituted the words— —

1. when the bridge is opened (the date of opening being before 1st January 1985) for traffic on the highway so carried;
2. when the bridge is opened (the date of opening being on or after 1st January 1985) for traffic on the road so carried."; and

(c) in subsection (5), after the word "highway" there shall be inserted the words ", or as the case may be road,".

(4) In section 118(1) (duty of highway authority as respects road bridge over railway or inland waterway)—

1. (a) in paragraph (a), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) in paragraph (b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(5) In section 199(1) (ending of liability of certain Boards to make payments on being relieved of responsibility for bridges carrying trunk or special roads)—

1. (a) for the words "229 of the Highways Act 1959 or section 7 of the Trunk Roads Act 1946" there shall be substituted the words "266 of the Highways Act 1980 or section 77 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984";
2. (b) after the word "highways", in both places where it occurs, there shall be inserted the words ", or as the case may be roads,";
3. (c) for the words "230 of the said Act of 1959 or section 8 of the Special Roads Act 1949" there shall be substituted the words "267 of the said Act of 1980 or section 78 of the said Act of 1984";
4. (d) in paragraph (a), for the words "58(2) of the said Act of 1959, section 7(3) of the said Act of 1946 or section 8(2) of the said Act of 1949" there shall be substituted the words "55(2) of the said Act of 1980 or subsection (4) of the said section 77 (or that subsection as applied by subsection (2) of the said section 78)", and after the word "highway" there shall be inserted the words ", or as the case may be road,"; and
5. (e) in paragraph (b), for the words "229(3) or 230(2) of the said Act of 1959 or the said section 7(3) or 8(2)" there shall be substituted the words "266(5) or 267(2) of the said Act of 1980 or subsection (4) of the said section 77 (or that subsection applied as aforesaid).".

(6) In section 121(8) (interpretation), at the end there shall be added the words "; and in the application of the said subsection (5) to Scotland the reference to a highway authority shall be construed as a reference to a roads authority.".

(7) In section 122 (further provision as regards interpretation)—

1. (a) in subsections (1) and (3), for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) subsection (4) shall cease to have effect.

(8) In section 123 (power of highway and other authorities to contribute to cost of barriers, etc., at level crossings), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(9) In section 124(1)(a) (Railways Board's obligations at level crossings with roads other than public carriage roads) for the words "public carriage" there shall be substituted the words "carriageway of a public".

(10) In section 149 (application of road traffic enactments to Crown roads)—

1. (a) in subsection (2), in each of paragraphs (a) and (b) for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in subsection (5)(b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "public road".

(11) In section 159(1) (general interpretation)— (a) after the definition of "bus service" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'carriageway' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; (b) in the definition of "highway authority", paragraph (b) shall cease to have effect; (c) after the definition of "liability" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'local roads authority' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; (d) after the definition of "plated weight" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'public road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; and (e) after the definition of "the Railways Board" there shall be inserted the following definitions— 'road' and 'roads authority' have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;" ").

Page 131, line 24, at end insert—

("The Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act 1972 (c. 27)

. In section 7(1) of the Road Traffic (Foreign Vehicles) Act 1972 (interpretation), for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definition— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".")

Page 131, line 27, at end insert— ("( ) In section 14 (disregarding of representations with respect to development authorised by or under other enactments), in paragraph (a), for the words from "1 of" to" 1949" there shall be substituted the words "5, 7, 9, or 12 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984". ( ) In section 19(2) (certain operations or uses of land not to be taken to involve development)—

1. (a) in paragraph (b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in paragraph (c), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

( ) In section 136(2) (compensation not payable in respect of imposition of certain conditions), for the word "highway", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road". ( ) In section 181(1) (scope of certain provisions relating to blight notices)— (a) for paragraph (e) there shall be substituted the following paragraph— (e) is land on or adjacent to the line of a road proposed to be constructed, improved or altered, as indicated in an order or scheme—

1. which has come into operation under; or
2. which is proposed to be made or confirmed under, and in respect of which a notice has been published under Schedule 1 to the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984, being land in relation to which a power of compulsory acquisition conferred by that Act may become exercisable as being land required for purposes of construction, improvement or alteration as indicated in the order or scheme; "; and

(b) in paragraph (f), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads ( ) In section 194(2) (questions as to appropriate authority for purposes of certain provisions), in each of paragraphs (a) and (b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads". ( ) In section 195 (interpretation)— (a) in subsection (3), for the word "highway", in each place where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and (b) in subsection (4), for paragraphs (a) and (b) there shall be substituted the following paragraph— (aa) the coming into operation of any requisite scheme or order under the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;". ( ) In section 198 (highways affected by development: orders by Secretary of State)— (a) in subsection (1), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; (b) for subsection (2) there shall be substituted the following subsection— (2) Any order under this section may make such provision as appears to the Secretary of State to be necessary or expedient for the construction or improvement of any other road, and may direct that the other road so constructed or improved—

1. (a) shall be entered by the local roads authority in the list of public roads kept by them under section 1 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984; or
2. (b) shall be deemed for the purposes of that Act, to have been constructed by him under section 18 thereof,

and in the case of a road so deemed, that it shall, on such date as may be specified in the order, become a trunk road within the meaning of that Act."; (c) in subsection (3)—

1. in paragraph (a), sub-paragraph (ii), and the word "or" immediately preceding that sub-paragraph, shall cease to have effect; and
2. in paragraph (b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and

(d) in each of subsections (4) and (5)(a), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road". ( ) In section 198A (highways affected by development: orders by planning authorities)— (a) in subsection (1)—

1. for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road";
2. in paragraph (a), for the words "section 50 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970" there shall be substituted the words "the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
3. in paragraph (b), for the words "section 1 of the Special Roads Act 1949" there shall be substituted the words "that Act";

(b) in subsection (2)—

1. (i) in paragraph (a), for the word "provision", where it occurs for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "construction", for the word "highway", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road", and for the words "any highway so provided or improved shall be maintained and managed by the highway authority" there shall be substituted the words "the other road so constructed or improved shall be entered by the local roads authority in the list of public roads kept by the local roads authority under section 1 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
2. (ii) in paragraph (b)(i), the words "sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of" shall cease to have effect;

(c) in each of subsections (3) and (4), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and (d) in subsection (5), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads". ( ) In section 201 (order extinguishing right to use vehicles on highway)—

1. (a) in subsection (1)—
   1. for the word "highway", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
   2. for the words "8 of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act 1909" there shall be substituted the words "3 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984";
2. (b) in subsection (2), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road";
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3. (c) in subsection (3), for the word "highway"—
   1. where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
   2. where it occurs for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "road";
4. (d) in each of subsections (4), (5) and (8), for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road";
5. (e) in subsection (9)(b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads";
6. (f) in subsection (10)—
   1. (i) in paragraph (a), for the word "provision", where it occurs for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "construction", for the word "highway", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road", and for the words "any highway so provided or improved shall be maintained and managed by the highway authority" there shall be substituted the words "the other road so constructed or improved shall be entered by the local roads authority in the list of public roads kept by the local roads authority under section 1 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
   2. (ii) in paragraph (b)(i), the words "sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of" shall cease to have effect; and
7. (g) in subsection (11)(a), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

( ) In section 202 (provision of amenity for highway reserved to pedestrians)—

1. (a) in each of subsections (1) to (4), for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) in subsection (5), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

( ) In section 204 (procedure for making of orders by Secretary of State), in each of subsections (2) and (7), for the word "highway" wherever it occurs there shall be substituted the word "road". ( ) In section 205A(1)(a) (further procedure in anticipation of planning permission, etc.), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word" ( ) In section 206(3)(aa) (provision as to time specified in certain orders), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".").

Page 131, line 37, at end insert— ("( ) In section 210A(2) (recovery of costs of making orders relating to roads paths, etc.)—

1. (a) in paragraph (a), for the word "highways" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in paragraph (d), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

( ) In section 242(1) (contributions by local authorities towards certain expenses incurred by a local highway authority or the Secretary of State)—

1. (a) for the words from "the provisions" to "highways" there shall be substituted the words "section 5(9) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 (power of local roads authority to contribute towards costs incurred by Secretary of State in construction or improvement of trunk road"; and
2. (b) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

( ) In section 250(1) (expenses of, and borrowing by, local authorities), for the words "highway" and "highways" there shall in each case be substituted the word "roads". ( ) In section 275(1) (interpretation)— (a) in the definition of "engineering operations", for the word "highways" there shall be substituted the word "roads". (b) for the definition of "improvement" there shall be substituted the following definition— 'improvement', in relation to a road, has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; (c) for the definition of "local highway authority" there shall be substituted the following definition— 'local roads authority' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; (d) in the definition of "means of access", for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and (e) after the definition of "restriction on the winning and working of minerals" there shall be inserted the following definitions— 'road and roads authority' have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".")

Page 132, line 14, at end insert— ("( ) In section 65— (a) subsection (1) shall cease to have effect; and (b) in each of subsections (2) and (3), for the words "this section" there shall be substituted the words "section 181(1)(e)(ii) of the Act of 1972".")

Page 132, line 19, at end insert—

("The Control of Pollution Act 1974 (c. 40)

.—(1) The Control of Pollution Act 1974 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 13 (dustbins etc.)—

1. (a) in subsection (7)(c), for the word "highways" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in subsection (7A)—
   1. (i) for the word "highway", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
   2. (ii) in paragraph (a), for the words "relevant highway authority" there shall be substituted the words "roads authority".

(3) In section 27(1) (interference with refuse tips and dustbins etc.)—

1. (a) in paragraph (a), for the words "parish or community council" there shall be substituted the words "roads authority";
2. (b) in paragraph (b), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
3. (c) the words "or council" and from "In the application" to "1970" shall cease to have effect.

(4) In section 32(1)(c) (control of discharge of matter other than trade or sewage effluent)—

1. (a) for the words "works which a highway authority is obliged or entitled to keep open by virtue of section 10 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970" there shall be substituted the words "a drain which a roads authority is obliged or entitled to keep open by virtue of section 30 of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
2. (b) for the word "highway", where it occurs for the third time, there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(5) In section 62 (noise in streets)—

1. (a) in subsection (1)—
   1. (i) for the word "street", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
   2. (ii) the words from "In this subsection" to "public" shall cease to have effect; and
2. (b) in subsection (2)(e), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "public road (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)".

(6) In section 105(1) (interpretation), after the definition of "regulations" there shall be inserted the following definitions— 'road' (except where the context otherwise requires) has the same meaning as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950; 'roads authority' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".

(7) In section 106 (general application to Scotland), subsection (4) shall cease to have effect.").

Page 132, line 35, at end insert—

("The Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 (c. 66)

.—(1) The Licensing[...] (Scotland) Act 1976 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 28(2) (interpretation)—

1. (a) in paragraph (a), for the words "Special Roads Act 1949" there shall be substituted the words "Roads (Scotland) Act 1984"; and
2. (b) in paragraph (b), for the words "2 to that Act, as varied from time to time by any order under section 2" there shall be substituted the words "3 to that Act, as varied from time to time by any order under section 8".

(3) In section 139(1) (interpretation), in the definition of "hawking", for the words "the streets, highways" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

The Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 (c. 3)

.—(1) The Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 2(1)(a) (unauthorised dumping of motor vehicle etc.), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(3) In section 3 (removal of abandoned vehicles)—

1. (a) in subsection (1), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road";
2. (b) in subsection (3), the words "within the meaning of the Highways Act 1959" and "within the meaning of that Act" shall cease to have effect; and
3. (c) subsection (4) shall cease to have effect.

(4) In section 6(1) (removal and disposal of things other than motor vehicles), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In section 11(1) (interpretation)— (a) for the definition of "highway" there shall be substituted the following definition— 'carriageway' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; and (b) after the definition of "the relevant date" there shall be inserted the following definition— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984.".")

Page 132, line 43, at end insert—

("The Water (Scotland) Act 1980 (c. 45)

.—(1) The Water (Scotland) Act 1980 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 9(5) (powers of water authority as regards supply of water for non-domestic purposes), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(3) In section 10(5) (interpretation)— (a) for paragraph (b) there shall be substituted the following paragraph— (b) roads authorities as defined in section 143(1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;"; and (b) for paragraph (d) there shall be substituted the following paragraph— (d) road managers as defined in section 2(5) of the said Act of 1950;".

(4) In each of sections 13(5) (accelerated procedure for supply of water in bulk) and 22 (power to break open streets), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(5) In section 23 (power to lay mains etc.)— (a) in subsection (1)— (i) in paragraph (a), for the word "street" where it occurs for the first and second times there shall in each case be substituted the word "road" and for the words from "the persons" to "street" where it occurs for the third time there shall be substituted the words— — (i) where the road is a public road, the roads authority: and (ii) in any other case, the authority or person responsible for the maintenance of the road, or, if no authority or person is so responsible, to the owners of the solum of the road,"; and (ii) in paragraph (b), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and (b) in subsection (2), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(6) In section 24 (communication and supply pipes), in each of subsections (1) and (4) for the word "street", there shall be substituted the word "road".

(7) In section 25(2) (power of islands or district council to erect and maintain drinking fountain or trough)—

1. (a) for the word "street", where it first occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (b) for the words from "if" to "authority" where it occurs for the second time there shall be substituted the words "there shall be no such erection by the district council without the roads authority's consent".

(8) In section 33 (temporary discharge of water into watercourse)—

1. (a) in subsection (1), for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road" and for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads";
2. (b) in subsection (2), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
639
3. (c) in subsection (10), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the words "public road".

(9) In section 75(2)(b) (saving as regards penalty for polluting water), for the words "highway, so long as the highway" there shall be substituted the words "public road, so long as the roads".

(10) In section 76(3) (carrying of drain etc. under, across or along any street)—

1. (a) for the word "highway", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads";
2. (b) for the words "street", where it first occurs, and "streets" there shall be substituted respectively, the words "road" and "roads"; and
3. (c) for the words "street maintainable at the public expense"there shall be substituted the words "public road".

(11) In section 77(3)(c) (application of order relating to obtaining supplies of water to meet drought), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(12) In section 109 (interpretation)— (a) in subsection (1)— (i) the definition of "bridge authority" shall cease to have effect; (ii) in the definition of "communication pipe", for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; (iii) the definitions of "highway" and "highway authority" shall cease to have effect; (iv) after the definition of "prescribed" there shall be inserted the following definitions— '"private road" and "public road" have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;'; (v) after the definition of "river purification authority" there shall be inserted the following definitions— '"road" has the same meaning as in the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950; roads authority" has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;'; and (vi) the definition of "street" shall cease to have effect; and (b) subsection (2) shall cease to have effect.

(13) In section 110 (further provisions as to communication pipes), in each of subsections (1) and (2), for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road".

(14) in Schedule 3 (provisions as to breaking open streets and laying communication and supply pipes)— (a) in paragraph 1—

1. for the words "the roadway and footpaths of any street and of any bridge carrying a street" there shall be substituted the words "a road";
2. for the word "street" where it occurs for the third time there shall be substituted the wood "road"; and
3. for the words "roadway or footpath", in both places where they occur, there shall be substituted the word "road";

(b) in paragraph 2—

1. in sub-paragraph (1), for the words "the roadway or footpath of a street or bridge (not being a street or bridge maintainable at the public expense) which is" there shall be substituted the words "a private road"; and
2. in sub-paragraph (2), for the words "the roadway or footpath of any length of street" there shall be substituted the words "any length of road";

(c) paragraph 3 shall cease to have effect; (d) in paragraph 4— (i) in sub-paragraph (1), for the word "street" where it occurs for the first and second times there shall in each case be substituted the word "road" and in the proviso, for the words "the persons having control or management of the street" there shall be substituted the words— — (i) where the road is a public road, the roads authority; and (ii) in any other case, the authority or person responsible for the maintenance of the road, or, if no authority or person is so responsible, to the owners of the solum of the road"; (ii) in sub-paragraph (2), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; (e) in each of paragraphs 5, 6(1), 7(2) and (8) for the word "street", wherever it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and (f) in paragraph 9, in the proviso to sub-paragraph (2)—

1. (i) for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
2. (ii) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(15) In Schedule 4 (provisions to be included in orders relating to water undertakings)— (a) in paragraph 2 for the word "street", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; (b) in paragraph 5— (i) in sub-paragraph (1)— for the word "street", in both places where it occurs there shall be substituted the word "road" and for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and in the proviso, for the words from "—(a)" to the end of head (b) there shall be substituted the following words— in, on or over—

1. (a) any public road except with the consent of the roads authority;
2. (b) any other road or other land or, without prejudice to head (a) above, any public road for which the roads authority is the Secretary of State, except with the consent of the regional or islands council within whose area the road or other land is;"; and

(ii) in sub-paragraph (2)— for the words "council or a highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and for the word "street" in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "road"; (c) in paragraph 22, for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; (d) in paragraph 24—

1. (a) in sub-paragraph (1), for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and
2. (b) in sub-paragraph (2), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "roads".

(e) in paragraph 36, for the word "streets", in both places where it occurs, there shall be substituted the word "roads" and for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road"; and (f) in paragraph 39— (i) in the proviso to sub-paragraph (1), for the words "to the persons having the control or management of the street or other place where they propose to open the ground, and" there shall be substituted the following words— —(a) where the ground is, or comprehends, part of—

1. a public road, to the roads authority; or
2. any other road, to the person responsible for the maintenance of that road, or, if no authority or person is so responsible, to the owners of the solum of that part; and

(b) where or in so far as the ground is not mentioned in head (a) above, to the person having the control or management of the ground; and the undertakers"; and for the word "streets" there shall be substituted the word "roads"; and (ii) in sub-paragraph (2), for the word "street" there shall be substituted the word "road".")

Page 134, line 9, at end insert—

("The Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (c. 45)

.—(1) The Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 shall be amended in accordance with this paragraph.

(2) In section 19(5) (restriction on power to appoint taxi stance)—

1. (a) for the words "highway authority (within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970)" there shall be substituted the words "roads authority";
2. (b) for the word "highway", where it occurs for the second time, there shall be substituted the word "road"; and
3. (c) the words "being a highway" shall cease to have effect.

(3) In section 48(4) (interpretation of provisions relating to fouling of pavements by dogs), for the words "meanings respectively assigned to them by section 50(1) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1970" there shall be substituted the words "same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984".

(4) In section 54(3)(e) (non-application of provisions relating to annoyance caused by playing musical instruments etc.), for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(5) In the proviso to section 96(1) (restriction on exercise of certain powers as rega3rds statutes and monuments), for head (ii) there shall be substituted the following head— (ii) where such land is a road, the roads authority,".

(6) In section 125(1) (interference with dustbins etc.) for the word "highway" there shall be substituted the word "road".

(7) In section 128(2) (control of stray dogs), for the word "highways" there shall be substituted the words "in roads".

(8) In section 133 (interpretation), after the definition of "public place" there shall be inserted the following definitions— 'public road', 'road' and 'roads authority' have the same meanings as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".")

Page 134, line 19, at end insert—

("The Level Crossings Act 1983 (c. 16)

. In section 1(11) of the Level Crossings Act 1983, for the definition of "road" there shall be substituted the following definition— 'road' has the same meaning as in the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984;".")

The noble and learned Lord said: These amendments are explained in the same way as the previous bloc. These are consequential amendments to a number of statutes consequent upon the new arrangements and the new structure of road legislation in this Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

Here we have not only a highways Bill, but a streets Bill as well. Is it contended that people will more readily understand and be more legally satisfied with the fact that you can sell pets in roads rather than in streets? Where are they usually sold? Ask anybody and off the cuff he will say "in the the streets". But the word "street" has gone. It is now a dirty word. It is like "highway" and "turnpike". It is such nonsense. I now come to Amendment No. 159, which is part of this group that is moved en bloc. Am I right in thinking that there is a new power in paragraph (b) and that it is not, as the noble and learned Lord said, bringing something up to date? Am I right in thinking that this is a new power?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I think not. What is being done in Amendment No. 159 is to adapt the provisions of the Weeds Act 1959, so that they conform with the principles which are set out in respect of the subordinate legislation in the amendment which I moved earlier. As I understand it and as I explained, that is all that is happening.

Lord Ross of Marnock

As I understand it, it applies to the Secretary of State as the roads authority, though previously it did not apply to the Secretary of State; and, of course, the Secretary of State has always been a roads authority in respect of special roads. So I think that this is a new power. I am not prepared to argue whether or not he should have it. I think that he should have it, provided I know what the Weeds Act does. But I do not think anybody in this House will be able to tell us what the Weeds Act 1959 really does. This is the nonsense of this Bill. This matter should not be dealt with in the this way in a Committee of the Whole House. This should have gone to some special committee of two or three people, who could have gone over anything that was done. But I am not objecting. There are a few other points which I could make, but there is no point in making them. The process is a farce.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

On Question, Whether Schedule 8, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?

Lord Ross of Marnock

I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord could tell us exactly why the words "highway" and "road" have been left in, and given a special definition under the Public Utilities Street Works Act 1950? We have not got rid of "road" here, where elsewhere we have. The same is true in respect of some other words. We deliberately leave in the word "highway" in respect of Section 117 of the Transport Act 1968.

There is one other question that I want to ask about this schedule. Many of these Acts are United Kingdom Acts. Does that mean that we shall have one definition of "road" in respect of England and Wales, and another definition for Scotland? In other words, will the word "street" remain for England and Wales, but be changed to "road" for Scotland? There is an indication of that happening in Amendment No. 161A: (5) to Scotland the reference to a highway authority shall be construed as a reference to a roads authority. Does that mean that in England it is still a highway authority, and that in England there will still be a reference to turnpike roads and even to streets, but not in Scotland? All this is for the better understanding of roads legislation! It really is asking us to accept far too much. But the question I want to ask is in respect of United Kingdom legislation which we are amending here. What happens to the English part of the legislation?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

The situation is that, so far as the English part of the legislation is concerned, it is consistent with the structure of the English system of legislation in relation to roads or highways. The Scottish legislation, and the parts affecting Scotland in United Kingdom legislation, will be consistent with the Scottish system when these amendments are made. We have tried to be consistent throughout in that. So far as the Public Utilities Street Works Act is concerned, the provisions there are adapted for both jurisdictions and are, in my view, adapted appropriately.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I expect that they will be adapted appropriately, but they have not been explained. The answer to my question is, yes. There will still be highways in England but not in Scotland, because the Scottish lawyers have had a great deal of trouble, worry and concern over the presence of the word "highway", but there has been no such trouble in England. I cannot understand the difficulties into which Scottish lawyers have got, as compared with their English counterparts. But I will not quarrel with it. I am still trying to demonstrate the nonsense of this whole business.

Schedule 8, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 9 agreed to.

Schedule 10 [Certain special roads to be trunk roads]:

Lord Mackay of Clashfern moved Amendments Nos. 166B to 173:

Page 136, line 21, at end insert—

("51 & 52 Vict. c. 25.

The Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1888.

Section 16(3).")

Page 136, column 3, leave out lines 35 and 36.

Page 137, line 45, at end insert—

("6 & 7 Eliz. 2. c. 69.

The Opencast Coal Act 1958.

In section 13(6), the words "'highway' includes a public right of way;".")

Page 137, line 53, at end insert—

("10 & 11 Eliz. 2. c. 58.

The Pipe-lines Act 1962.

In section 66(1), the definition of 'carriageway'.")

Page 138, line 14, at end insert—

("1968 c. 47.

The Sewerage (Scotland) Act 1968.

In section 59(1), the definition of 'street'.")

Page 138, line 15, column 3, at beginning insert— ("In section 119(1)(a), the word "repair". Section 121(6) and (7). Section 122(4).")

Page 138, line 15, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 159(1), in the definition of "highway authority", paragraph (b).")

Page 138, line 27, column 3, at beginning insert— ("Sub-paragraph (ii) of section 198(3)(a) and the word "or" immediately preceding that sub-paragraph. In section 198A(2)(b)(i), the words "sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of".")

Page 138, line 27, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 201(10)(b)(i), the words "sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of.")

Page 138, line 55, column 3, at end insert— ("In section 232(3), in paragraph (a) the words "under section 200 by the Secretary of State," and ",200,"; and in paragraph (b) the words "under section 200 by a highway authority,". In section 236(1), the words "200,".")

Page 138, line 58, column 3, at end insert— ("In Schedule 20, paragraph 3.")

Page 139, line 6, column 3, at end insert— ("Section 65(1).")

Page 139, line 9, at end insert—

("1974 c. 40.

The Control of Pollution Act 1974.

In section 27(1), the words "or council"; and from "In the application" to "1970".")

Page 139, line 10, column 3, leave out ("Section 14(1)(a).") and insert ("In section 14(1), paragraph (a) and the words "local highway authority," where they occur other than in that paragraph.")

Page 139, line 11, at end insert—

("1978 c. 3.

The Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978.

In section 3, in subsection (3) the words "within the meaning of the Highways Act 1959" and "within the meaning of that Act"; and subsection (4).").

Page 139, line 11, at end insert—

("1980 c. 45.

The Water(Scotland)1980.

In section 109, in subsection (1), the definition of bridge authority", "highway", "highway authority" and "street"; and subsection (2). In Schedule 3, paragraph 3.").

Page 129, line 19, at end insert—

("1982 c. 45.	The Civil Government (Scotland) Act 1982	In section 13(6), the words "(within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1972)".
		In section 19(5), the words "being a highway".
		In section 97, the words "street or" and "to which the public have access".").

The noble and learned Lord said: I would ask leave to move these amendments to Schedule 10 en bloc. They make minor repeals of provisions which will be rendered unnecessary or inappropriate by the Bill. I beg to move.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I am not going to object. It becomes so crazy with this Bill and it is pointless. I even passed over a mis-spelling of the word "structure". I did not want to draw anyone's attention to it, but it was spelled without a "t". I shall give the noble and learned Lord the reference, but I really thought that it was some new term that had been introduced by the Scottish Office, and who am I to question even the spelling of the Scottish Office as interpreted by the printers? But may we have a promise that there will be no further amendment of this schedule at the next stage of the Bill?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

I am sure that the noble Lord would not like me to put myself in a position where I could not get the Bill, on leaving this House to go on its journey to the other place, as perfect as it is possible for us to make it. Apart from anything else, the noble Lord has put to me some points which we shall have to consider in relation to further amendments, and I feel certain that the noble Lord, with his great interest in and regard for the Scottish system, would like the Bill, now that it has gone thus far, to be as perfect as possible when it leaves here.

Lord Ross of Marnock

I was referring not to the points which I raised during the course of the Bill but to the changes which have been made to this schedule, which spring from the additions which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate is to make to Schedule 8. It must be a record to have 24 more pages added to a schedule. It will run to over 50 pages, depending upon how the printer prints the schedule. No doubt the printer will be instructed to print it closely, so that my suggestion is not brought to fruition. Can the Lord Advocate tell me whether any more additions will be made to Schedule 8 which will necessitate further amendments to Schedule 9 at the next stage of the Bill?

Lord Mackay of Clashfern

As I have already said, I have no doubt that the noble Lord would like the Bill to be as perfect as possible. If it appears as our work continues that the Bill would be made more perfect by further amendments, I am sure that the noble Lord would wish me to come forward with them. I am not very good at prophecy. I do not know that I ought to endeavour to make any prophecies at this stage about what will happen at the next stage of the Bill. However, perhaps I may take this opportunity to express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, to the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove, to the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, and to my noble friends Lord Selkirk, Lord Drumalbyn and Lord Stodart of Leaston for the interest they have taken in the Committee stage of the Bill and for the help they have given in making the Bill as perfect as it is now.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Schedule 10, as amended, agreed to.

House resumed: Bill reported with the amendments.

House adjourned at three minutes past nine o'clock.