HL Deb 31 January 1984 vol 447 cc548-50

2.40 p.m.

Lord Morris: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government by what statutory provision they are entitled to borrow temporarily or otherwise documents in the custody of the Public Record Office.

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone)

My Lords, Section 4 (6) of the Public Records Act 1958 permits the temporary return of public records in the Public Record Office to the department or office from which they were transferred.

Lord Morris

My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for that Answer. Where a Government department withdraws documents from the custody of the Public Record Office, may I ask him how one can possibly escape the conclusion that the department concerned might have something that it wishes to hide?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I cannot think how my noble friend can draw such a conclusion. It means that the department wants to use the documents.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord say how long these documents will be withheld from the Public Record Office? Is there not a danger that, by departments recovering documents from the Public Record Office and witholding them, they may be able to circumvent the 30-year rule? In the meantime, would it be possible for the Foreign Office to make arrangements for the documents now in its custody to be available to researchers and others who want to examine them?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, the Question related to the statutory provisions under which these documents could be returned. The terms of the statute read as follows: Public records in the Public Record Office or other place of deposit appointed by the Lord Chancellor under this Act shall be temporarily returned at the request of the person by whom or department or office from which they were transferred". There is nothing in the Question which related to the considerations which the noble and learned Lord has raised.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

With great respect, my Lords, may I just follow that? Do my questions nevertheless arise from, and relate to, the content of the original Question and the noble and learned Lord's reply?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, that is a question of opinion. But if the noble and learned Lord puts down a Question, no doubt the appropriate Minister of the Crown will answer it. I am myself unwilling again to traverse the ground which was so well traversed by my noble friend Lady Young a week or two ago.

Lord Byers

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will consider asking the appropriate department to have the documents photostated and copied, so that they can be made available to those who want to look at them?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I am sure that the appropriate department will note what the noble Lord has said. However, on 21st December, in a Written Answer, I was able to tell my noble kinsman the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that 17,500 documents had been returned to the departments under the provisions of the subsection in the year ending on, I think, 30th September last. So a good deal of photostating would be required.

Lord Byers

My Lords, with all respect to the noble and learned Lord, it is not a question of the number of documents totalling 17,500; it is the number that ought to be returned, and I cannot believe that that is in the thousands.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, all the documents have to be returned. The section provides for temporary return to the departments from which the documents had originally been obtained. As I read the word "temporary" it does not mean the same as the word "permanently".

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor aware that the whole House will have been glad to note in a recent Written Answer to myself his disapproval of the mutilation of, or deletions from, these documents? Will the noble and learned Lord follow up that disapproval with equal disapproval of their retention?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I am always glad to have the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Putney, rare as it is; but I think that my Written Answer referred not to documents returned to the originating department under Section 4(6), but to the delivery to the Public Record Office from the originating department in the first place. However, I am delighted to bask in the sunshine of the noble Lord's approval.

Lord Walston

My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord expand a little on his definition of "temporary"? He told us that it is not permanent. Will he give us a slightly narrower definition, and say how long in his opinion temporary should be?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I am always the servant of Parliament, and on that interesting subject the Act is totally silent.