HL Deb 30 January 1984 vol 447 cc465-8

3.51 p.m.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat in the form of Statement a reply being given by my honourable friend the Minister of State to a Private Notice Question being asked in another place on imports of meat into France. The Answer was as follows:

"We understand that the French Government yesterday restricted the number of points of entry through which fresh pigmeat and all live animals may be imported into France. I immediately expressed our concern direct to the French Minister of Agriculture when I met him last Friday that nothing should be done to impede the normal flow of trade and sought clarification of precisely what was entailed. He agreed that our officials should meet to discuss the detail and this meeting will take place this afternoon".

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, that is a very brief and well put Answer to the Question, but there are a few matters that I hope the noble Lord will convey to his honourable friend the Minister that should be questioned. I should first like to say that any country has the right to be cautious about foot and mouth disease, but the veterinary committee which met in the middle of last week, and no doubt on very good advice, allowed the exports from Holland to start again which the French have accepted. Most of us have only the press reports, which are suggesting—I wonder whether the noble Lord could confirm this—that the inspectors are being concentrated on a smaller number of points of entry to give better control and not having to spread over the previous number. We have to remember that Article 36 of the Treaty of Rome allows individual countries different health standards for entry.

I wonder whether the noble Lord can find out or can tell us whether the lamb we are exporting is cheaper on the Continent than French lamb? I cannot imagine that that is so, but I know that farmers in Wales and Scotland—I do not know why I put Wales before Scotland, but probably from respect for my noble friend sitting behind me—are worried about the situation because they have a thin enough time in agriculture as it is, and I hope that in this connection something can be done. However, I wonder whether the Minister can confirm—the French have made this point—whether the protection of our lorries would be easier for the police if there were fewer ports of entry. Whether this is a glib excuse I do not know, but it is a point.

Further, I should like to ask whether there is any word of the Commission's request to the French for clarification. I believe that this question was asked on Friday or Saturday, and I wonder whether the French have replied. The Prime Minister had long meetings with President Mitterrand last week, and I wonder whether she raised the question and what reply she was given.

Lord Diamond

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Answer to this Private Notice Question of which, as the result of the new arrangements, none of us in this House had any foreknowledge before the Statement was made by the Minister. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me say, therefore, that I do not propose to ask any further questions of detail which have been so ably put already, especially having regard to the fact that the meeting is to take place and has not already taken place. I am, and I suspect many of your Lordships are, more concerned with this as evidence of the falling away of attitudes of liberality in trade negotiations which is taking place in the United States, France and this country and which should surely be a matter of great concern. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether he will not consider whether we should not somewhat change our attitude which is not all that praiseworthy in relation to liberality of trade? Should we change the emphasis in our attitude and appeal to the French similarly lest we go further downhill in respect of restriction of trade practices, which would damage this country more than any other country in the world?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for their responses to this brief Answer. Yes, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, that the French Government, so I understand, have said that their objective is to have a smaller number of points of entry to deploy the French veterinary services to greater effect. I am afraid I cannot say by how much the French intend to restrict the number of points of entry. I do not have that information.

So far as the comparison of lamb prices is concerned, it is a fact that British lamb is cheaper than French lamb as our production costs are lower, but the clawback of the variable premium raises the export price. Nevertheless, we have a significant trade with France in lamb. If I may underline the point, we have free trade within the Community.

To answer the last point which the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, put to me, I am not aware of ways in which the United Kingdom Government have in any way been in dereliction of Community rules in free trade within the Community. I am not saying that in this case the French Government have either, but we are looking carefully at how this matter develops.

The last point I should like to answer is that, so far as action by the Commission is concerned, my understanding is that the Commission will be waiting for more information before it takes a view. Although I have no information about whether there was talk on this matter between my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the French President, I should like to underline the point that when my honourable friend the Minister of State met the French Minister of Agriculture in Berlin over the weekend, my honourable friend, as the original answer said, strongly put the point, that nothing should be done to impede the normal flow of trade and sought clarification of precisely what was entailed". That brings me back to my original point. A meeting is going on at precisely this moment. I trust that as a result of that we shall have some more information.

Baroness Elliot of Harwood

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the fact that in this country we all honour free trade in Europe. But quite often the French at certain times of the year, mostly in the autumn, close down the import of lamb. I know this because it happened to me. When that happens it is very frustrating. This has happened several times, and I wonder whether this also will be discussed, because it is in fact quite wrong. How they get away with it I really do not understand, but they do. I think that this new proposal of limiting the ports where lamb can be imported might have something to do with their trying to cut down the amount of imports because fewer ports might enable them to import less. I wonder whether the Minister realises that these things happen, although, strictly speaking, they are not supposed to.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I have listened carefully to what my noble friend has said, but I think I ought to emphasise that the original Answer makes clear that, although we have very little detailed information, we understand that the French action is intended to apply to fresh pigmeat and all live animals, but not to affect beef or sheepmeat in this case.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, on the question of British lamb being cheaper than French lamb, I notice from the press report that the French Minister of Agriculture told a delegation of French farmers of the Government's determination to achieve an immediate removal of MCAs. Would that not exacerbate the situation?

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I do not want to be unhelpful to the noble Lord, but I think that if we get on to MCAs we are really going so wide of the original Question that we are almost on to another subject. I accept that, to the noble Lord, it is a very important subject, but I think that on this occasion it is going a little wide.