HL Deb 24 January 1984 vol 447 cc135-8

2.45 p.m.

Baroness David

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what help they intend to give to local authorities which find themselves in financial difficulties because, having provided places in colleges for young people on the youth training schemes, as requested by the Manpower Services Commission, a large proportion of these places have not been occupied.

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Gowrie explained in his recent letter to the noble Baroness, Ministers from the Departments of Employment, Education and Science, and Environment intend shortly to meet the local authority associations to discuss their concerns.

Baroness David

My Lords, I am very glad to hear that there is to be a meeting, but is the noble Viscount aware that the problems of over-commitment arose from the MSC's regional and area planning figures? A good many authorities took those figures as a firm basis on which to plan their own provisions. Is the noble Viscount aware of the fact that the additional expenditure which will be incurred because of this is extremely substantial? In Devon, it is £300,000; Berkshire, £200,000; Hampshire, £500,000; and Nottinghamshire, £700,000. Only one of these, I may say, is a Labour-controlled authority.

Is the noble Viscount also aware that there have been discussions in relation to the youth training scheme about compensating both private and public sector managing agents and sponsors who have suffered losses through no fault of their own? Will the noble Viscount support such compensation?

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has said. In the first place, as I think she would agree, many of these matters are properly to be discussed at the meeting which is being arranged. I will certainly see to it that my right honourable friend and my noble friend know about these matters so that they are properly represented, and that the noble Baroness's very proper points are put at that time.

As far as my support for any particular measure is concerned, the noble Baroness will realise that I am doing my best to answer for the Minister of State. Therefore, if I were to come in with full support for something which was not fully within my knowledge, I would be treading on dangerous ground. For the moment, I will say that I shall ensure that those representations are made.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Viscount will take note of a number of factors which contribute to the problems which local authorities are now facing? Like my noble friend, I welcome the statement that there are to be discussions on this matter. But would the noble Viscount not agree—or would he put it to his noble friend—that there are a number of factors involved? The first is that under the arrangements for Mode A places there can be reimbursement to companies where the take-up of places at the end of the day is not as was expected at the beginning of the day. But that does not apply to local authorities, even if they are sponsoring Mode A schemes.

Secondly, does the noble Viscount not agree that the proposed decrease in the number of Mode B schemes will exacerbate the problem of local authorities? Again may we ask the Minister responsible to look at this problem? We understand—and perhaps the noble Viscount can confirm this—that the guidance has come from the Secretary of State at the Department of Employment.

Thirdly, does the noble Viscount not agree that there is a very real danger—as Philip Merridale, the education chairman of the ACC, has implied—that local authorities will withdraw entirely from the scheme unless there is a different arrangement for funding? I believe that the noble Viscount would agree with me that that would be tragic.

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. On the question of reimbursement to local authorities, I am sure she will agree that that is a matter for discussion at the talks, and I will certainly represent it. So, too, is the proposed decrease in Mode B schemes something that must be discussed and very carefully considered with the local authorities. I agree entirely with the noble Baroness that it would be tragic if there were to be any withdrawal from the scheme. It is important to remember that the guarantee of a place to all unemployed 16 year-olds has been substantially met, with just over 4,000 yet to take up places. That that guarantee has been met is a tribute to all that has been done in the scheme and to the work of the local authorities. That is why any withdrawal from the scheme would be disastrous.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, would the noble Viscount not agree that since there has not been full take-up (although we know that recently the take-up has somewhat increased) there is a very strong case for extending the offer of places to the 17 year-olds who are unemployed? Such an offer would not involve more money, since the money is not being fully utilised. This would help to fill the places and to reduce the number of unemployed in the 17 year-old age group.

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness will agree that the first task was to make sure that the commitment to the 16 year-olds was fully met. As that commitment has been fully met, what the noble Baroness has said should certainly be considered. I shall bring the matter to the attention of my right honourable friend.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is there not a danger of a conflict between the objectives of the Manpower Services Commission, which the Government support, and Government policy as represented by the noble Viscount's right honourable friend? Is the noble Viscount aware that the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission, Mr. David Young, has appealed to the Government to be generous? If the local authorities carry out the objectives of the Manpower Services Commission and the Government, are they not in danger of being penalised by the Government, in view of their very unsatisfactory policy in relation to spending by local authorities?

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, with respect, that is very nearly, though not quite, a different question. However, I note exactly what the noble Lord has said.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, following the point made by my noble friend Lady Seear, will the noble Viscount also note that in Cheshire, where I live, there were 1,453 vacancies last month in youth training schemes and 2,729 unemployed people aged between 16 and 18 who were not eligible under the relevant regulations to fill those vacancies? Will the Government or the Manpower Services Commission consider what further action can therefore be taken to bridge the difference between those two figures, which no doubt reflect the position in the country as a whole?

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, that is an important point. Because I accept that it is an important point, I shall make certain that it is put to my right honourable friend.

Baroness David

My Lords, may I make a final plea to the noble Viscount, as we are lucky enough to have him, in his very powerful position, answering this Question, to be generous to the local authorities? Their feelings have been ruffled by what has been going on.

It would be very helpful if he could use his influence to smooth things over in this area.

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Whatever may be my power, power backed by detailed knowledge is more valuable than power without it, and I have to admit that my power is without detailed knowledge. Nevertheless, I accept the point, and everything shall be done to enlist the support of the local authorities for a scheme which depends very considerably upon them.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, would the noble Viscount not agree that it is not only the local authorities which are in a bad way? They are making a great cri de coeur, but very many employers who are acting as management agents are suffering in exactly the same way.

Viscount Whitelaw

My Lords, the noble Baroness's question emphasises one of the great dangers of politics. If you express sympathy for one group of people you nearly always leave out another. Therefore, I shall express sympathy to all those concerned and say that we need the support of them all in order to make the scheme work.