Forestry Commission Disposal Programme (Hansard, 19 January 1984)

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)
My Lords, the Forestry Commission's disposal programme has been set at £82.1 million for the five-year period ending 31st March 1986. The level of the programme is reviewed annually in the context of the Government's public expenditure survey.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, while I thank the noble Lord for that reply and for indicating that the target is £82 million, does his subsequent statement mean that this is not a limited target and that there is no certainty that having sold £82 million-worth of Forestry Commission land, this selling-off programme will cease? Will the noble Lord read the recent statement of his noble friend Lord Belstead to the effect that he regards the success of forestry in this country as being essentially based upon a partnership? Will he tell us how a partnership can be run effectively when one partner is being diminished by decree of the Government while the other partner is being enlarged?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, the scale of the programme is looked at carefully in the context of the annual review of public expenditure. I can assure noble Lords that the limited purpose of this programme is kept very much in mind on those occasions. As far as the noble Lord's second point is concerned. I see no reason why the partnership between the private sector and the Forestry Commission should not continue in a harmonious way as it has done for so many years. Indeed, I pay tribute to the very distinguished part which the noble Lord played in that association when he was chairman of the Forestry Commission. The difference is that we see the greater part of the programme being carried out by the private sector rather than by the public sector; but I can give the noble Lord the assurance that the Government are still committed to a future planting programme by the Forestry Commission.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the proceeds, the £82 million, are going to be used to develop that land at present owned by the Forestry Commission but not yet 1148 planted—because it is well known that this country is short of timber?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, the £82 million will he paid into the Consolidated Fund in the traditional manner. Of course, each year the Government subsidise the Forestry Commission, so that a certain amount of that money will be ploughed back. How this is used must be for the discretion of the Commission.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, may I ask what effect these sales are having—particularly that at Glenelg—on the morale of the staff of the Forestry Commission, particularly the industrial staff?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I think it would be right to say that the fear as far as the staff is concerned is always regarding future redundancies. But, if we look at the redundancies which have been declared by the Forestry Commission, only a very few have been as a result of the disposal programme. Far and away the greater number of redundancies are as a result of the Commission's constant endeavours to become more efficient and to develop more modern practices in the execution of their work.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, I feel that the Minister has not managed to put that across to the staff. May I ask him whether he realises that about 80 of them (at their own expense and losing thereby a day's pay or a day's holiday) came down to lobby this House at the end of November? Surely, if that is the case, are not the Government failing to convince them about the situation?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, the Government are doing their very best, and so are the commission, to reassure the staff of the Forestry Commission. I think that the fact that there have been so few redundancies as a result of the disposals programme is significant. If the staff are still apprehensive, then, obviously, the commission will do all they can to reassure them.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, will the Government promise not to overlook the aesthetic value of our forests as a fine ornament of the landscape?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
Yes, my Lords, the commissioners have guidelines to which they adhere when they decide upon which areas should be put up for sale. Certainly, the aesthetic value is one which is taken into consideration; so, also, is public access.

Lady Saltoun
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the purchasers have been private individuals or, if not, what they have been; and whether any of them have been foreign?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I cannot give a list of the purchasers, as the noble Lady will appreciate, but I can assure her that so far there have been no sales to foreign interests.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, can the Minister clarify his answer to the first part of the 1149 supplementary question of my noble friend Lord Taylor of Gryfe? Does the Minister mean that if, inside five years, the Forestry Commission sell £82 million of timber and land, no more will be sold after that? Or did I understand him to say that if the Government want more money, they will sell more? Is that what he meant?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
No, my Lords. I would not wish to mislead the noble Lord. What I said was that the scale of the programme is looked at very carefully in the context of the annual review of public expenditure. I also said that the limited purpose of the programme is kept very much in mind. I did not say that there would not be any further sales but I indicated that the limited nature is very much kept in mind.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the Forestry Commission he has a very devoted work force who take great pride in the woodlands that they have created? Could I have a guarantee from him that before the figure of £82 million is exceeded the work force will be taken into consultation in any further selling-up programme?

§ Lord Gray of Contin
My Lords, I can give the noble Lord no such guarantee but I can say to him that the Forestry Commission have entered into certain long-term contracts and it will be their objective to fulfil them. That will also be taken into very careful consideration if and when any future sales are contemplated.