HL Deb 28 February 1984 vol 448 cc1154-7

2.44 p.m.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the statement by Lord Belstead on 5th July 1982 in answer to the Lord Avebury (Hansard col. 652) that only "a small number of items" had been withdrawn from the Public Record Office for use within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and "that those which are no longer required have been returned to the Public Record Office", they will now make available in the Public Record Office copies of the few remaining documents.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Young)

My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's Question is, No. To do as the noble Lord asks would involve disproportionate public expense.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree with the statement of John Stuart Mill that all silencing of discussion is an assumption of infallibility—which the Government are taking to themselves in this case in that they will not allow the ventilation of arguments with which they disagree, but that, in doing so, they arouse the hostility of the people of Britain who think that if they are being prevented from listening to an argument then the Government's case must be a bad one? And is it not the best way of convincing the outside world that our assertion of sovereignty is false that we are not prepared to allow free discussion on all the issues involved?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is making quite unwarranted assertions. As I indicated in the Answer to the Question which he put down just before Christmas, the records, when the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have finished looking at them, are returned to the Public Record Office. That is always the procedure.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the Answers vary from Question Time to Question Time. The noble Baroness for the first time today refers to "disproportionate public expense" in relation to the retention of a small number of papers and their return to the Public Record Office. Can she say precisely how the expense is disproportionate? It would seem on the face of it to be a very small expense indeed. Secondly, do the papers that are retained deal with sovereignty exclusively or are other matters involved as well? Can she now say that these papers will be returned—especially as she herself told the House a few weeks ago that they are not classified documents?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the Answer that I have given to the Question today is couched in the precise terms of the answer that I gave to a supplementary put by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, when he put down a similar Question in December. As I indicated then—and I confirm to the House again—these are unclassified documents; and when they are no longer required they will be returned to the Public Record Office.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, would the noble Baroness be good enough to reply to my supplementary question? She said that to return them would involve a disproportionate public expense. Would she be good enough to explain to the House what is the expense and in what way it is disproportionate?

Baroness Young

My Lords, it is not the returning of the documents to the Public Record Office which is expensive. It is the particular point put down by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in his Question, which is to, make available in the Public Record Office copies of the … documents". At any one time the Foreign and Commonwealth Office might have something in the order of a thousand records. To make copies of these would involve disproportionate public expenditure.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, since the noble Baroness tells the House that the cost of providing copies will be disproportionate, will the Government be prepared to provide copies to people who are prepared to pay for them?

Baroness Young

My Lords, it is not just a question of providing copies of particular documents to which Lord Avebury's Question referred. Clearly if we were prepared to provide copies for the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, we should have to provide copies for everybody. That is where the disproportionate expense comes in. Furthermore, they would have to be identified.

Lord Airedale

My Lords, is not the truth of this matter that these are documents which throw doubt upon Britain's claims to sovereignty over the Falkland Islands and therefore the Foreign Office do not wish members of the public to be allowed to see them?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I hope I have made the position absolutely plain. When the records, which are in the public domain, are no longer required, they will be returned; and then everybody will be able to see them.

Lord Gladwyn

My Lords, might not any Member of Parliament or of this House be allowed into the Foreign Office to consult these documents, if necessary?

Baroness Young

My Lords, Yes, when they are in the Public Record Office.

Lord Morris

My Lords, how long does it take for officials of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to read, understand and study a document before they have to return it?

Baroness Young

My Lords, it entirely depends on the records being consulted.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, with respect to the noble Baroness, whom we all admire, may I ask whether she is aware that the nature of her replies creates an unnecessary suspicion that there may be something in these papers that is of great importance? I would ask her to reply to that point now. May I also ask whether she will be good enough to consult with her right honourable friend in order to see whether this problem can be resolved either by giving a date when she thinks the documents will be returned, or by informing the House that they will be returned forthwith?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I have indicated that all the documents will go back to the Public Record Office. On the first of the noble Lord's supplementary questions, I can only repeat to him the answer that I gave to a similar supplementary question that he put down when this matter was last before your Lordships. I said then: Referring to a subject as complicated as the history of the Falkland Islands, it is inevitable that individual officials will have differing and in some cases conflicting views. Successive British Governments have made it clear that they have no doubts about our sovereignty over the Falklands.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, would it not be simpler for the Foreign Office, when they want a document, to copy it, thereby leaving the record in its proper place in the Public Record Office?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the assumption behind the noble Lord's question is that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is looking at only one document from the Public Record Office. As I have already indicated, at any one time there may be 1,000 records out from the Public Record Office, and therefore it would not be a practicable proposition to copy them all.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that she has treated the House this afternoon with insolent disdain—

Noble Lords

Oh!

A noble Lord

Withdraw!

Lord Avebury

—which is wholly uncharacteristic of her, and which is also quite unacceptable? Will the Minister say whether she is talking about a small number of items—as the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, said in the question to which I referred—or whether it is a thousand items, as she has said this afternoon? Does she not agree that the withholding of these documents must be seen in the context of the concealment of many other documents for 50, 70 and even 100 years concerning the sovereignty of the Malvinas (as I shall call them until this matter is finally cleared up)?

Baroness Young

My Lords, what I have said in response to this question applies to the particular documents to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has referred as well as to any other documents which the Foreign Office might be looking at at any one time. When they are no longer needed they are returned.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, while dissociating myself from the adjective "insolent", may I ask the noble Baroness whether she will not look at this matter again? As I understand it, the original information supplied was that only a small number of items had been withdrawn. If that is right, the expense factor must be negligible, must it not? In so far as the noble Baroness has referred to the documents being returned in due course, may I ask when will that be?

Baroness Young

My Lords, some documents have been returned, and others will be returned when we have completed our consideration of them. But I think there is a misunderstanding which, if I may say so, is exemplified in the noble and learned Lord's question. If some documents were to be copied, the arrangements to be made for any one person would have to be available for everyone who borrows documents from the Public Record Office. That is where the disproportionate public expense and administration would come in.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, while deploring the Minister's reply to the present question, may I ask whether she would accept my congratulations—and, I am sure, those of the whole House—on the release of the British mercenaries held for so long in Angola?