Metropolitan and Borough Councils: Services (Hansard, 24 February 1984)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, where responsibility for a service, including a scheme for concessionary fares, passes to the district or borough councils after abolition of the metropolitan county councils and the GLC, they will normally exercise the same powers and be under the same duties as the MCCs and the GLC. The Secretary of State for Transport has announced that he would make provision in the London Regional Transport Bill to safeguard the future of a uniform scheme of travel concessions for pensioners and disabled people in London. There would be a different situation in the metropolitan county areas following abolition, where there would be joint board transport authorities, which could take over responsibility for these functions, while in London the Secretary of State will have responsibility for LRT.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, but is he not aware that this wilful destruction of the metropolitan county councils—and their crime would appear to be similar to that of the GLC, that on occasions they vote Labour—will mean the abolition of very many services which will affect millions of ordinary people, particularly the infirm and old-age pensioners? Is the Minister not further aware that these six metropolitan boroughs, which were created in 1972 by a Conservative Government, and the GLC, now provide tremendous services and are completely in line with the Redcliffe-Maud Royal Commission's recommendations which said: All aspects of transportation must he controlled by the metropolitan area and a unified policy is essential". They have justified that Royal Commission's recommendation. Why do the Government wilfully want to destroy what is good for so many millions of ordinary people?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I have to remind the noble Lord that five out of seven authorities concerned were, of course, Conservative-controlled on a previous occasion, and the politics of those authorities has nothing whatever to do with the intentions of the Bill. Of course, the noble Lord will not expect me to agree with him on his assertions. I am sure it was a slip of the tongue, but the noble Lord referred to borough councils and not to county councils.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister say whether the Government have the same obligation in connection with this area 965 in so far as the ordinary consumer organisations are concerned? Is the noble Lord aware that most consumer organisations—certainly, the citizens' advice bureaux and I think the trading standards officers—are really and truly concerned at what they believe will be the detrimental effect suffered by the people who make use of these organisations? Is the Minister able to say that the Government have the same obligation to ensure that those services are continued after this legislation, if it comes about, has been effected?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, consumer services are one of the concurrent functions. Indeed, many think that the fact that there were concurrent functions has itself contributed to authorities of this kind not having been successful. Of course, districts which will receive back this function on its own (whereas at the moment they still have that responsibility as do the counties) will be responsible. I see no reason why we should assume that at the lowest level—truly the local level—they will be any less responsible than those who at present have a broader canvas.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, would the Minister agree that the point in my noble friend's Question on the continuation of services of the metropolitan councils is linked to the Question I raised on the Coopers and Lybrand report? Despite what the Minister has said, does not that financial analysis make absolutely clear that if the present services are continued there cannot be the savings which the Government claim; there can only he savings if there is a deterioration in the services?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, on my reading of the report, not only does it not make that clear at all, but the very fact that even by their analysis they show opportunities for some savings only confirms what we have said all along: that there will be opportunities for very much greater savings. Indeed, reports now coming in justify that claim.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if, by this new structure, he can maintain these essential services and the main objective—which is, to relieve the hard-pressed ratepayers of some portion of the rates—he will earn the gratitude of everybody?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for what he says. Of course that is one of the objects of the exercise, but it is not the only one.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us of any instance in our history where there has been a change in local government structure which has actually resulted in savings?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, that is precisely why we intend to show that this time it can be done.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, the Minister has not replied to the last point I raised on my first supplementary question. As there is obviously a difference between the Government's reading of this 966 report and my own reading of it, is it not now bounden on the Government to issue a statement answering the statements made in this report by responsible management consultants?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, need I remind the noble Lord that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment issued a press release and comment on this almost immediately it was published?

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister not aware—and the House must be aware—that we now face an extraordinarily serious situation? I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said in answer to my first supplementary question. Is he aware that this does not in any way link up with what Mr. Ridley said in the other place? He said that it might well be necessary to make changes, certainly for the administrative costs, in providing passes for old age pensioners. This is not a free pass as it exists at the moment. This House, and I believe the nation, want to know what are the facts of the current situation and the policy of the Government? They want to know what is said in the other place, or what is said in this place. Can we have the straight, direct answer to which people have a right?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I am not aware of any difference at all between what my right honourable friend in another place says and what I have said today. Indeed, I consulted with him before I answered the noble Lord's Question.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the report demonstrates once more that there is no case whatever on cost grounds for abolishing the metropolitan counties? The noble Lord, Lord Nugent, spoke about everybody. Is he aware that most fair-minded people in the country regard this proposal as sheer spite at the whim of the Prime Minister? Is he aware that if the GLC is abolished, we shall be the only major capital city in the West which does not have a unified authority?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I can say to the noble Lord that clearly we do not agree with what he says. I do not think that quoting the GLC and some of its antics this past few years is a good example to give. I made the point a few moments ago that the abolition of them—and I have made this point many times in the past—is not based upon their antics. It is based on the fundamental, underlying fact that they provide only 16 per cent. of all the services in the whole of the area; 84 per cent. come from other bodies.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister address himself to the problem which is faced by many people in local authorities? When the Minister says that the money will be made available, what the councils are worried about is that the management of their funds, particularly the rate support grant, is wholly in the hands of the Government. Can the Minister give a categorical assurance that when these powers are devolved away from the metropolitan areas, they can look forward to a continuation of the kind of monies which have been 967 spent on services like bus passes and others in the future? There is a great deal of suspicion that when words are used like "powers will be available", and "we intend to see", it still leaves it to local decision. Local people who are enjoying those services are fearful that, regardless of the needs, there are many local councillors who will take the view that they cannot afford the money.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, the noble Lord makes many assertions, but I understand his concerns. They are shared by everyone who has concern for local government, as indeed I have myself, as I think the noble Lord will confirm. The resources and the funds which go to an authority like the GLC will properly go to the other authorities who will take over from them. The only difference will be that in that one presumes that they will not be in default and therefore lose such grants, they will have more to spend than the GLC has without going to the ratepayer.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that the Government have to some degree moved towards meeting the criticisms of various bodies and other parties, but that they are still a long way from giving complete satisfaction to the many millions who will be affected?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point that there is much that has yet to be spelt out in greater detail, and indeed which will be. I hope that that will go some way to assuaging his concerns.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, may I ask the Minister how many of these councils which are to be abolished are ruled by the Conservatives, and how many by the Labour Party?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, I said earlier that at the present time the seven authorities concerned are Labour-controlled. At the last time five of them were Conservative-controlled.

§ Lord Leatherland
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that since the last time to which he refers the electors have seen the light?

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, it is not for me to comment on the noble Lord's assessment of what is "light".