HL Deb 01 February 1984 vol 447 cc679-84

4.34 p.m.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Lord Belstead)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The Statement is as follows:

"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement on the Council of Fisheries Ministers meeting in Brussels on 31st January. Together with the Minister of State at the Scottish Office, I represented the United Kingdom.

"The Council reached agreement, on the basis of compromise proposals put forward by the Presidency and the Commission, on the total allowable catches and quotas for 1984 for all fish species other than North Sea herring. The scientific advice on the management of the herring stocks will not be available for a few more months. We obtained significant improvements over the original proposals on a number of stocks of interest to United Kingdom fishermen, in particular cod and haddock west of Scotland, western mackerel, and a variety of sole and plaice stocks in western and southern waters. We have a clear commitment from the Commission that every effort will be made in further discussions with Norway to secure an increased availability of North Sea cod. We secured greater flexibility for our fishermen in respect of the closure of the mackerel fishery north-west of Scotland. The Council has therefore for the first time set total allowable catches and quotas early in the year to which they relate. This is an important achievement, since it gives fishermen throughout the Community a secure basis on which to plan their catching and their marketing operations.

"Pending receipt of the full scientific advice on herring in the North Sea, the Council approved interim arrangements, which the Commission had agreed with Norway. Under this agreement, up to 31st July Norway will be free to fish for 15,000 tonnes, while the member states of the Community will have quotas totalling 54,300 for the same period. The allocation of these quotas has been carried out on the basis of the key agreed at the Council on 14th December. The question of the distribution of member states' quotas between the three areas of the North Sea will be studied and a report made to the next Council in March. While I expressed concern at the relative size of the interim allocation to Norway, I accepted the proposal on the basis of a clear Council declaration confirming the declaration agreed on 3rd to 4th October concerning the distribution of North Sea herring as between Norway and the Community and emphasising that the interim arrangements agreed for the early months of 1984 do not prejudice the definitive allocation for 1984 and for subsequent years.

"The Council also agreed on the conclusion of a reciprocal fisheries agreement for 1984 with Sweden, an agreement with Senegal on access to fishing opportunities there on an improved basis, and a new agreement with Seychelles on access to tuna fishing opportunities.

"Finally, I raised the question of progress on the arrangements for improved enforcement of the common fisheries policy. I was told that as of today nine of the 13 Community inspectors would be in post and that, while it has not been easy getting hold of people of the right quality and experience, the remaining four inspectors had been nominated and would be in post within the next few months. As to the Community logbooks and landing declarations, consultation on their text and format has now been completed and tenders for printing will be issued in the next few days.

"This Council therefore marked another important step in transforming the common fisheries policy into a living and working reality."

That concludes my right honourable friend's Statement.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords. We are all very pleased that the Minister has made the Statement, and we thank the noble Lord for passing it on to us. The way in which the Minister has given credit to the whole Council of Fisheries Ministers for reaching the agreement says much for him. I took to task his predecessor, who, more than a year ago, came back from Brussels and spoke about what he called "a triumph for Britain". I just want to mention that I think that the Minister should be commended for the way in which he has handled that particular matter.

Press comment which I read before hearing the Statement was more impressed with the speed with which the agreement has been reached this year, bearing in mind that the 1983 agreement was concluded only last December. Of course, if one has just concluded one decision, it is probably quite easy to come to another; nevertheless we are grateful for what has taken place.

Via my colleague in another place, I have been in touch with the Scottish Fisheries Federation. Broadly speaking, the federation is fairly happy with the agreement, but, quite frankly, it is worried about the Norwegian situation, and I am glad that the Minister has dealt with it to quite an extent. The federation feels that though the fishermen may get the extra cod, they may have to give up some herring to Norway in order to get it. I wonder whether the Minister would care to say something about that.

I was intrigued to hear that the total allowable catch of herring is 34,500 tonnes, according to the figure I have been given, and that with more scientific evidence, which I gather from the Minister will not be available for a while, it could probably be increased by another 20,000 tonnes. This is an increase of 57 per cent. and seems a very large figure resulting from a scientific decision to be made in a month or two. I wonder whether the Minister is able to clarify the matter.

The fishermen are also a little worried about some of the boxes where they are forbidden in the meantime to fish for herring. I take it that this issue will be resolved at the same time as a decision is taken on the extra catch that they may take. There is not much more that I need say except to refer to a revealing letter which appeared in the West Highland Free Press last week from a skipper—a very honest skipper—who said that there would never be proper control until there was far better policing than exists at present. It has taken all this time to appoint nine Community inspectors when 13 are needed and it will be a while before the other four are appointed. The log books have not yet been printed.

Fishermen are very suspicious of one another. They are suspicious that the policing of the total allowable catch will not be satisfactory. That is one of their complaints. Otherwise, we welcome the Statement. As the fishermen say, we hope that it will be a living and working reality.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, we, too, welcome the Statement. It is good news for the fishing industry that we have made some progress rather earlier than usual in the year. I should like to ask three questions. Can the Minister tell us more of what the total allowable catch, particularly for haddock, cod and herring, is, and whether the extra mackerel catch that was wanted in the Minch has been granted? Secondly, can he say when the Minch will close for mackerel. Thirdly, can he say more about herring, over which some disquiet has already been expressed?

I understand that it is an interim agreement on herring. It is not entirely clear to me what interim means. Does it mean a temporary agreement running up to July? Does it mean that further catches of herring by member states and the Norwegians will be allowed after 31st July? I take it that it does. Norway will therefore get even more than the 15,000 tonnes mentioned in the Statement. There is grave misquiet in case this becomes a precedent. I notice that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is well aware of this. Can the Minister say whether the Norwegians have given an explicit undertaking that this will not be a precedent? If no such undertaking has been given, there will be considerable disquiet in the industry.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords for the reception that they have given to this Statement. It is, I think, important, if I may follow what the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, said about agreement being reached early in 1984, which was perhaps not so difficult having reached the previous agreement so late in 1983. It is nonetheless important that we have got agreement early in the year to which the agreement relates so far as marketing arrangements are concerned. It is, incidentally, the second Council in a row that can be called successful. This is to the credit, I believe, of my right honourable friend the previous Minister, to whom the noble Lord referred, as well as my right honourable friend on this occasion.

The noble Lord asked me whether, in seeking extra North Sea cod to which the Statement refers, we might find ourselves paying compensation from the point of view of other fish. All I would say is that this has to be worked out. Undoubtedly, there has been over-fishing by states, including member states. But we do not accept that compensation should necessarily be paid in North Sea herring. I must be perfectly clear about that fact. The noble Lord referred specifically to the herring fishery and to the very high percentage that Norway has gained by the temporary agreement struck with the Commission. I take the noble Lord's point. But the advantage is, of course, that the fishery is open and that a Commission working party is to consider what it would be possible to do to allocate quotas between areas of the North Sea and report to the next meeting of the Council.

In answer to both noble Lords, I should like to make the point that the agreement about the opening of the North Sea herring fishery is on an interim basis up to 31st July. It is established that the agreement with Norway is without prejudice to long-term shares between Norway and the Community. The Council has confirmed its declaration of 3rd and 4th October on this subject. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, I would simply say on the policing arrangements that it is not for want of pressure from my right honourable friend that there has not been speedier progress. I am glad that it is clear from the Statement that we have just about got policing arrangements in place.

The noble Lord, Lord Grimond, asked me when the Minch fishery would close. This is the Scottish fishery north of 58 degrees North. It will remain open throughout the month of February. The arrangements, I understand, for the end of the year are not quite so favourable, although we have agreement, subject to review, that the fishery would remain open until the end of December and not close until January. The noble Lord asked me about quotas for various fish. I wonder if I can look at the specific points that he asked. I should, however, like to take up the point about mackerel. There is an increase of 25,000 tonnes in the total allowable catch, still within the figure recommended by scientists and in accordance with United Kingdom pressure for caution in respect of conservation.

Lord Ross of Marnock

My Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the total allowable catch of demersal stocks of cod and haddock this year compared with last year? Secondly, am I right in thinking that there is still a considerable way to go and some hard bargaining to take place in negotiations with Norway? So far as I am concerned, the British Minister seems to be adopting the right and desirable attitude. There is no justification in history in the whole pattern of Norwegian fishing for their exaggerated claims in respect of quotas of herring.

I should like to strengthen the point put by my noble friend Lord John-Mackie. We cannot talk of having a real common fisheries policy when we have not got common fisheries control. There are no log books or certification of landings. Nothing of that sort has yet been achieved. At the end of last year, we were told that it would be April. It is now February and the Minister now says that it will take a few months. I know that it is not his fault. We have plenty of experience of this in our own fishing. However, we can have no confidence in quotas once they are given—they have still to be worked out even among ourselves in the north, central and south sub-areas of the North Sea for herring—until there is proper control.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, the answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Ross of Marnock, is that in respect of cod west of Scotland, the United Kingdom quota is to be 13,150 tonnes. That is about half way between the Commisssion's proposals, as they were first put forward, and the 1983 figures. For cod west of Greenland, which is of interest, as the noble Lord knows better than I, to distant water vessels only, the quota is 2,740 tonnes. That is the same figure as 1983.

I was grateful for what the noble Lord said about the fault so far as policing arrangements are concerned. I should like, if I may, to put it a little more firmly. It is because my right honourable friend the Minister brought heavy pressure to bear at the first common fisheries policy meeting, I think, that he attended, that we have got so far as we have. I am glad that this Statement makes it clear that the arrangements for policing are just about in place.

Baroness Hornsby-Smith

My Lords, I should like to join in offering congratulations to my noble friend the Minister for the speed with which he has been able to complete these negotiations. Nine inspectors are already appointed, and four appointments are pending. It seems to me that 13 inspectors for the whole of our fishing coastline are totally inadequate. I should like to inquire whether they work Civil Service hours or whether they work a 24-hour shift. It is our experience in the south-west that the pirates who over-fish their quota do so late at night; they sneak into a berth and sneak out again at 4.30 or 5 o'clock in the morning, between the hours of duty of the inspectors. We have ample evidence of the way in which French and other boats have done that on the south coast. It strikes me that 13 inspectors, if there is to be a 24-hour patrol, are totally inadequate.

If I understood my noble friend aright, the negotiations on the herring quotas are not completely finalised. Can we have some assurance that we shall not have a repetition of what happended last year, when the Danes not only fished far beyond their quota but took more fish out of the North Sea than the entire quota granted to all the EEC fishing countries put together? We are desperately worried that, if the quotas are unduly delayed, this may happen yet again.

Lord Belstead

My Lords, perhaps I may first answer my noble friend's criticisms or doubts about the adequacy of the policing arrangements. I really think that we shall have to see how they go. The Government will very much bear in mind the remarks which my noble friend has made. So far as concerns policing arrangements as they relate particularly to the south-west, I would only add that I am glad to have noticed from the activities in the Council that the fishermen in the south-west—and, indeed, it is fair to say, the Welsh fishermen, too—should benefit from the improvements to the Commission's proposals which have been made as regards the total allowable catches for sole and plaice.

As regards herring, my understanding is that the interim agreement is enough to get us going without anybody being accused of over-fishing before a final agreement is reached. But I come back to the point on which the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, particularly asked for an assurance. This is an interim agreement; it is without prejudice to final agreement later on about herring.