Sewers: Maintenance (Hansard, 19 December 1984)

§ Lord Molson
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, in response to the 1982 report of your Lordships' Committee on Science and Technology, the Government have been encouraging water authorities and their agents to concentrate surveys on sewers in critical areas so that remedial works can be planned in the most cost-effective way. The authorities are using the most up-to-date techniques, developed by the Water Research Centre in collaboration with the construction industry, to further this work.

§ Lord Molson
My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for that very encouraging answer. May I ask two relevant supplementary questions? Is he prepared to repeat, in respect of sewage works, the assurance he gave me on 31st October with regard to water supplies—that for those procedures which the water authorities themselves wish to carry out there is sufficient money? Secondly, is it the case, as I have read, that the Government are seeking the repayment of loans that have been made to the water and sewerage authorities? If so, would he represent to the Secretary of State that at a time when capital and current expenditure are being strictly limited, when in every way the expenditure of local authorities is being restricted, and when the grant from the Treasury has been reduced below 50 per cent., this is an inauspicious moment to ask for the repayment of loans?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am prepared to answer my noble friend's first supplementary by giving the same assurance, but in rather different words, as I did a month or so ago. Investment takes account of the needs identified in the water authorities' 1984 corporate plans, and this year investment in sewerage by the water authorities will be £244 million. They themselves plan to increase it to £280 million per annum over the next three years.
In regard to the loans identified in my noble friend's second supplementary question, I should like to say that these are not in fact loans at all; they are borrowings from the sometimes rather inaptly named National Loans Fund, and it is Government policy that they should he repaid. For example, the Thames 642 Water Authority will be repaying £61 million-worth of debt next year.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister not think again, in view of the mauling that the Government got yesterday in another place when they sought to introduce heavy curbs on public expenditure in the public sector? If the Government are really serious about doing something about tackling unemployment, will not the Minister and his colleagues use the excellent opportunity provided by this Question to do something positive about it?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the district and borough councils are, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Graham, well knows, agents for the water authorities. The water authorities provide the money, and so there is no overlap in this Question between events that may or may not have occurred yesterday in another place and the statement my noble friend Lord Avon made yesterday. The Government's policy is to improve employment by creating long-term jobs. We are being very successful at this. Two hundred and fifty thousand new jobs were created this year alone. The Opposition policy, as I understand it, is to massage the figures, to take people for short terms off the dole. In my view, this policy would be a mere flash in the pan.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, if the money for these sewerage works is provided by the water authorities, may I ask my noble friend how it comes that there is such a vast difference in different parts of London, whereby prudent councils such as Westminster have a rolling programme and regular sewerage maintenance while other councils, other local authorities in London, have let their sewers deteriorate to the point of danger?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, as I said in answer to an earlier supplementary, the money is found by the water authorities and identified in their annual corporate plans. The sewerage arrangements are such that different contracts exist between different agents. For example, in London, as my noble friend has just mentioned, different contracts exist between the water authority and the different London districts, and I would expect that this is the principal reason behind my noble friend's concern.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the National Water Council, which is the responsible authority in this matter, is in fact far from satisfied with the Government's efforts in this area? Is he aware that the report to which he referred made plain that there are 5,000 sewer failures a year and 3,500 collapses, with repair costs of £100 million a year; that a significant percentage of the country's 210,000 kilometres of sewers are over a hundred years old; and that the council recommends that the Government should show a sense of urgency in the matter? Will the noble Lord say what percentage increase of investment the Government will be making in order to avoid a very serious development indeed?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am afraid that my mind is not quick enough to translate into percentages the figures that I gave in answer to an earlier 643 supplementary question, but my information from the water authorities is that only a very small proportion—that is, less than 20 per cent.—of our sewer system was built before 1915 and that the major part of that is in reasonably good condition. More than half the system is less than 40 years old, and it will be very many years before major works of repair or renewal will be needed.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, will the noble Lord explain the difference between borrowing money, with the intention of returning it, from the Public Loans Board as a borrowing, and borrowing money, with the intention of returning it, from the Public Loans Board as a loan?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I should have thought that a debt, which this money is (although it is a debt owing to the National Loans Board), could never be described as a loan.

§ Lord Roberthall
My Lords, is the Minister able to tell us whether the increase between this year and the next few years will be in real terms? In other words, will there be more, or will it merely be keeping up with inflation?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
No, my Lords. It is in cash terms, but it is actually more money in real terms.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that 210,000 kilometres of sewers are over 100 years old?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
No, my Lords, I am afraid I cannot do that. What I can tell the House is that there are about 140,000 miles of public sewers in England and Wales, and some 2,000 collapses a year. Put another way, there is one collapse for every 70 miles of sewer. This means that the average urban street might suffer a sewer collapse once in 180 years.

§ Viscount Mersey
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend will agree that this is at least the season of goodwill. Will he be frank with us and say whether what he has already told us has in fact happened, or whether he merely believes that it has happened, or whether he would like it to have happened, or whether he wanted others to believe that it has happened, or whether he wanted others to believe that he believed that it had happend?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the answer is none of them. I can give the assurance that it will happen.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that there is scope in this matter for the provision of thousands of unskilled jobs throughout the country? It is not just a question of the decaying old sewers which noble Lords have mentioned, and which are serious enough. Does the noble Lord not appreciate that there are thousands of villages throughout Britain which have no sewerage system at all? Does the noble Lord appreciate that the whole of their sewage is disposed of by means of septic tanks? If the Government really wanted to provide jobs they could 644 provide thousands of jobs throughout the country in this connection, and that, surely, is preferable to paying dole.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, if we were to provide the thousands of jobs for which the noble Lord has asked in this respect, it would mean digging up vast amounts of our roads—both country roads and those in our conurbations. In my view the traffic and pedestrian upset that that would cause would prove to be totally unacceptable.

§ Lord Mottistone
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that those of us who are privileged to have septic tanks are very happy to be left that way and hope that the Government will not start to give us main drains at vast expense to themselves and ourselves?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I have just spent a small amount of money cleaning out my own septic tank, and I am very happy with this example of Government philosophy.

§ Lord Soames
My Lords, will my noble friend inform the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, that 140,000 miles, which he says is the total length of the sewerage system in this country, is less than the 210,000 kilometres which Lord Cledwyn reckons are over 100 years old?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Soames.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the Government get away from this septic tank philosophy?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, the Question is not about septic tanks, but about the sewerage system.

§ Lord Molson
My Lords, as the Minister has confirmed that under the present plans there will be £61 million less available to the Thames Water Authority this year, will he represent to his right honourable friend that this is not an auspicious moment for carrying out that particular economy?

§ Lord Skelmersdale
No, my Lords, I do not think I can do that, because the Thames Water Authority's outstanding borrowing is extremely low and its interest charges are correspondingly small. It will be able to undertake not only the repayment of £61 million of debt but also a capital programme of £109 million in 1985–86.