§ 2.47 p.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish a White Paper concerning the loss of the navigator's log book of HMS "Conqueror".
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the Minister recall that when I first raised the matter in the House he agreed that there were such serious implications in it 273 that it ought to be thoroughly examined from the point of view of safety concerning not only HMS "Conqueror" but also other of Her Majesty's ships? since then there have been allegations in the press and reports of conflicting statements made by senior and junior officers; so some cannot be telling the truth. That is causing concern. Therefore, because of the security aspect and to clear up the issue properly for all involved, will the noble Lord reconsider his short and unnecessarily abrasive Answer?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am afraid that we have already released as much information on this issue as we can, consistent with national security. I would draw the noble Lord's attention to the Written Answer which I offered to my noble friend Lord Mottistone on 4th December.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, would the noble Lord care to enlighten me on this subject? I require a bit of information. My memory goes back some 80 years or so, which is a considerable time. This subject has been mentioned several times. What was it all about?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, strangely my own memory has now deserted me, too!
§ Lord MottistoneMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, sadly, the losing of documents has happened in the past and will no doubt happen again in the future? Is he further aware that I was court-martialled and found guilty for my ratings' losing confidential books back in the 1940s, and survived? These things happen. Is he also aware that I understand I was court-martialled in order to encourage those of my colleagues who might lose their books not to do so?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, as far as I know, there are no plans to offer Commander Wreford-Brown a peerage.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that this is not a question of just one log book, hut of six documents, and that those documents were, it is said officially, delivered to the Ministry of Defence intact after the debriefing of the crew of the "Conqueror"? Is it not also the case that his own Secretary of State for Defence publicly declared that the signals log was destroyed in the period up to February 1983 under the authority of the Defence Council? If that is so, is there not an overwhelming case for the Government to publish a White Paper or a further explanation as to how they and the department which the Minister represents have so conveniently managed to lose logs which contain all the signals concerning the action of "Conqueror" before and after the sinking of the "Belgrano"?
§ Lord TrefgarneNo, my Lords, because all signal logs are destroyed under the authority of the Defence Council, as described by my right honourable friend.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I do not want to make exceptionally heavy weather of the matter, but does the noble Lord consider that, in as much as there is 274 concern among personnel serving on Her Majesty's ships, some of whom may not see the matter altogether with the humour that the Minister does, an examination of some sort should be made, with particular emphasis on the security angle from the point of view of those personnel, the Navy and the nation?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, a board of inquiry was convened to inquire into those matters. The outcome was reported to the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and to your Lordships by myself.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, surely that was not a full account of what occurred. Is it not the case that as the board of inquiry failed to find any trace of the logs, the matter has now been handed over to Scotland Yard for further investigation? What is the noble Lord's latest news about the Scotland Yard investigation?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, I am afraid that I have no further announcement to make on that matter.
§ Lord Murton of LindisfarneMY Lords, is there any fear that "Belgrano-mania" is a contagious disease?
§ Lord TrefgarneMy Lords, that would not, I think, be a matter for me.