The Clergy: Mr. Gummer's Comments (Hansard, 10 December 1984)

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper:

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, my honourable friend preached this sermon in his private capacity as an elected member of the Church of England General Synod.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount the Leader of the House for his usual courteous and informative reply. Having been made 7 aware of the Answer, however, may I please ask whether he is aware that Mr. Selwyn Gummer was invited to the church at Cambridge University to preach a sermon and not to read out a political tract? The condemnation and attack on the leader of the Roman Catholics of Great Britain (no one should laugh that off) and the leader of the Anglican Church (and I do not think we ought to laugh that off) and the leader of the Free Churches (and I do not think that this House should laugh that off) was considered—if the noble Lord on the Front Bench finds that amusing he is entitled to do so; but he should go outside and condemn all these people and not make little funny faces when he knows he cannot be seen.
Perhaps I may be allowed to continue and briefly ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House (for whom I have the greatest respect) to give an assurance that what was said at that time will in no way be followed up with any restriction on clegymen of all denominations from making any comment as they think fit. The Government will maintain their right to attack such statements, but they should do so in a proper place. May I have an assurance that in future no pulpit will be used by Her Majesty's Governemnt to make a full-scale attack on all religions in this country?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, the noble Lord raises two points. The first concerns what my honourable friend actually said. In view of the fact that he was speaking in a private capacity, and the Government have no responsibility for what he said, I shall suggest that my noble friend sends a copy of his speech to the noble Lord. I have read it and I do not think that many of the constructions put on it by the noble Lord are borne out. He can judge for himself and I shall make sure that my honourable friend sends him a copy of the speech.
On the second point, I would be exceeding any authority that I may have if I were for one moment to suggest that the right reverend Prelates in this House were not allowed to say exactly what they wanted, and I would not be very successful if I tried to stop their saying it outside this House. Therefore, the obvious answer is that they can say whatever they like.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I thank the noble Viscount the Leader of the House for his reply? I have read the full reported contents of that sermon which, as the noble Viscount will know, was distributed through the Conservative Central Office long before the Paymaster-General made it. However, I am pleased to hear the noble Viscount the Leader of the House say that it can in no way be constructed as the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the right reverend Prelates, whether of the Anglican, Roman Catholic or Free Churches, cannot expect to get away scot free when they attack the Government?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I had not noticed that they had got away scot free.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I therefore ask the noble Viscount whether he is aware that I am very 8 pleased with his answer that the statement was in no way the policy of Her Majesty's Government and that they will in future not look at any religious denomination as being something of an irritant and turbulent?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I think I should simply briefly reply that the Government have to expect many people in many different capacities in our national life to criticise them and they would not be here for very long if they were not prepared to accept that.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, in view of the progressive attitude that the Churches are now taking on human suffering and human equality, not only in this country but throughout the world—in Latin America, and southern Africa—do not the Churches now deserve commendation rather than condemnation?

§ Viscount Whitelaw
My Lords, I only answer the noble Lord's question—which I think is somewhat outside the scope of the original Question—merely to say that most certainly the efforts that the Churches made in Ethiopia have been highly commendable, as have the efforts—I hope the noble Lord will also agree—which have been made by Her Majesty's Government, both in this country and within the Community, where considerable amounts of aid have gone to Ethiopia through the help and work of the Prime Minister and the British Government.